To make dd go on a school trip

[UterusUterusGhali]

Dd is just 14.

She is a wonderful girl, and good student. She struggles in certain subjects but is overall good in the subjects she is interested in.

She had MH issues. Self harm.

She has been invited to view oxford uni, as she has been predicted good grades. There are 32 in her year that have been invited.

She says she doesn't care or want to go, but I feel it would be a great opportunity. She also refused a "women in STEM" event that she was invited to, one of the few in her school.

She wants to be an architect, or possibly something in mental health.

I have signed her up for the oxford trip.

AIBU?

[dowhatnow]

Kids are under so much pressure to perform academically today - from school and from us. Even if we say just do your best, they know the expectation is there. Your dd op, is under huge pressure to fulfil her potential- those high grades she is predicted to get.

Some kids are more prone to buckle under pressure. Your dd has some MH issues which demonstrate clearly she is struggling with pressure of some kind already. Why on earth would you heap more pressure on to someone who is already struggling? Your role is to take some of that pressure off. This is extremely hard to do, as despite what you say, they don't want to disappoint you anyway - but at least an effort should be made.

Talk about why you want her to go but don't make a big issue of it. Treat it lightly. Say it doesn't really matter at this point in time whether she goes or not, but why not have a look. If she doesn't want to go then say fine and HIDE your disappointment. If she insists on not going but knows you are disappointed then that will be compounding her MH issues.

But always listen to her and make her really believe that she can be who she wants to be, whenever she wants, and that you will love her regardless of her life decisions. Be there to gently encourage but reduce pressure and expectation.

[LaurieMarlow]

Why's this trip so important to you? She's only 14, plenty of time for her to change her mind and view at a later stage. If she doesn't want to go I wouldn't push her.

And in the end, you supporting her education is about listening to her, understanding what she wants and needs and finding a third level option that will both realise her potential and make her happy. That may not be Oxford, even if she gets the grades/interview.

I'd be thinking very hard about whether Oxford is the the right uni to support a child with MH issues (though obviously lots can change in 4 years for your DD). I can think of 3 colleagues of the top of my head who massively struggled to manage their MH there. The atmosphere and support are very far from optimal. Worth thinking about this OP.

[RaskolnikovsGarret]

I

[SolemnGrundy]

I would strongly encourage her to go. Fair enough if she decides later, on the basis of an informed decision, not to apply. But if she doesn't go for an open day, it will always seem remote and inaccessible.

[harshbuttrue1980]

I'm a secondary school teacher in a private school. Some of our students want to go to Oxbridge, some don't - it isn't for everyone. The Oxbridge experience is very different to any other uni experience (e.g. lots of formal dinners, 1:1 tutorials etc), and isn't for everyone. If you are trying to push her into what YOU want, you could well end up making her mental health issues worse. She is a person in her own right, not a carbon copy of you that you can coerce into living your own dreams.
She can still choose to apply to Oxbridge when she is in Year 12, even if she hasn't been on this trip - if SHE wants to.
Maybe you should look at your own life - is there any possibility of you furthering your own education (e.g. through part time/distance study/the OU) so you can fulfil your own dreams and stop pushing them onto your daughter?

[dowhatnow]

Are some of you posters advising what you would do with your own children? Have you not seen the MH issues this child has?

[UterusUterusGhali]

Thank you all for your replies.

It's really helped me clarify the issue. :)

I won't make her go. I think I am desperate to show her she has promise and options. I never felt at her age I had these options owing to our circumstances.

She wouldn't have to stay over, we are in the south, and she isn't very timid. She coaches rugby to little folk and is quite confident, despite the mh problems. I do realise now going against her wishes will not help with her mh issues at all.

[Wolfiefan]

Good decision Uterus.
I would want, in the future, to know why she is turning things down. Is she not interested or is she anxious? If it is the latter CBT techniques could really help.

[Tallulahoola]

I'm always baffled by this obsession people have with Oxford and Cambridge. My parents were desperate for me to go, and badgered me about it all the way through secondary school. I didn't apply and don't regret it for one minute. I wanted to go to a modern city with bars and clubs (this was the 90s ) and not be stuck in somewhere wilfully old-fashioned. I was bright but didn't actually enjoy the academic side, it just came easily to me. The idea of all the extra work and pressure it would take to apply made my blood run cold. I'm now an adult and in my workplace there are plenty of Oxbridge grads who have got to the same place in their career as me, so it hasn't given them any advantage. Some professions still have an Oxbridge bias but a) why pander to that and b) would she really want to go into them anyway?

I know you want the best for her, but she's so young. Back off and support her in her other issues. She may decide of her own accord in a couple of years that she'd like to apply. Or she may not.

[AuntieKippers]

Good decision. Be very careful. On the first page you say that you are aware that you might be living through her and she is self-harming. Make her feel valued for herself not her achievements.
Are any of the other people who were going on the trips being nasty with her? Try to listen and find out.

Caution-if you fall into the trap of living your dreams through her she will finish up on the Stately Homes thread.Le her choose her own path, her mental health is more important to her future than her achievements.

[LittleHouseOnTheShelf]

DS went on a trip like that to Oxford, he liked what he saw but has decided not to apply to Oxford because he doesn't want the pressure, I respect that but DBro has a DD a year older who has got into Cambridge so he's now saying that I should tell DS he has to apply to Oxford. I honestly can't see the point in forcing him down that route. I did tell him to go on the trip as it was his first chance to see a uni and so was worth while from that PoV but not with a view to telling him to apply.

[dodobookends]

She might already believe that she will never be able to live up to your high expectations of her, and that she can't be how you want her to be.

My mother lived her life through me and spent years pushing me into doing things she'd never had the opportunity to do herself. It had the effect of making me feel that nothing I did would ever be good enough. She used to say "But I only want what's best for you" -, without realising that what she thought was best for me was not necessarily what I actually wanted. I knew that I wasn't the person she wanted me to be, and that whatever I did, she would always be disappointed in me.

Please allow your dd to make her own decisions about whether or not to go on this trip, and whatever you do, please don't try and live her life for her.

[NorbertDentressangle]

I can understand her not wanting to go to the STEM event if that's not her area of interest but the thing is, by going on the trip to Oxford, she isn't actually signing up to a lifetime there - I'm sure she realises this but can you not reinforce this.

It's a day out, a chance to have a nose round historic buildings, see a bit of university life and spend the day away from school with her friends.

My friend's DD went on a similar trip and loved it -she has no intentions of applying to Oxford but saw it as a fun trip to go on.

[BillSykesDog]

I would say some of the advice being offered on this thread is actually dangerous. Particularly for someone showing the symptoms the OPs daughter is. It's dangerously close to the process of invalidation which is often associated with the development of BPD. And as the DD is already showing symptoms which could be associated with BPD not a good idea.

Invalidation involves telling a child that their views, emotions, thoughts or opinions are wrong, worthless, stupid, misguided and not worth considering. So for example 'I don't want to be a scientist, I don't want to go to Oxford' - responded to with, 'You just don't understand, you need to go and see it, I think you should and I know better, you're going anyway because I know better than you how you feel and what you want to do'.

That sort of invalidation can be really damaging if it's a long term problem.

[AuntieKippers]

But OPs daughter is making it clear that she won't love it. OP needs to listen and find out why. Are there problems with her friendships? Does she feel under academic pressure? Something is upsetting her.

I have also just noticed the post by harshbuttrue and I agree with it.
If someone feels that they may be over-focused on their child's career and achievements its a good idea to look at any frustrations in their own life to see if there is anything they would like to study for or achieve yourself.

[AuntieKippers]

Also agree with Billsykes.
OP his is extremely important-your actions now could avert a lot of problems later. That is why I am urging you to be very careful and take stock.

[BillSykesDog]

It can also cause problems because it becomes a cycle of pressure and resistance and a pattern that a parent and child can fall into.

She might quite like the idea of going. But because she is resistant to being told what she should be doing and thinking she will refuse to go purely because she doesn't like being told what she should be doing.

So often in a situation like this pushing her to go is the least effective way of getting her to engage, it will just promote more resistance. And the best way of convincing her to do anything might be by telling her it is her decision and that will be respected. If she feels the decision is in her own hands, she may well feel more inclined to go. Unless she genuinely really doesn't want to go. In which case forcing her would be fruitless anyway.

[notagiraffe]

Is she aware that these things are just options she can explore? No one is pushing her to do anything. I say to DS2, who is reluctant to try anything new, that he's better off rejecting it from a point of l=knowledge than a can't-be-arsed attitude.

At 14, I think DC still need parental nudges. they are so sure they know what they want that they can accidentally shut doors. Oxford might be a brilliant opportunity. Or it might be totally wrong for her. But a day or two looking into it won't do her any harm. Me, DC never regret the stuff I sign them up for against their will. DS begged not to go on school Spanish trip. He came home from it tanned, beaming, relaxed, saying it was the best holiday he'd ever had.
It's OK to require them to try stuff at that age. That's good parenting. If we let them be the judge, there'd be way too many X-box geniuses in the world, with red eyes and wasted muscles.

[notagiraffe]

BillSykes I think any parent that pitch sit like that would be damaging, true. But there are other ways to pitch it. Along the lines: try it, and then come back and tell me what you don't like about it. But don't dismiss some of the best opportunities offered to you without exploring them. If after a day trip you still hate it, I'll not suggest it again.

It doesn't harm teenagers to be nudged out of their comfort zone. I don't think that's at all the same as negating their opinions and forcing ones own on them. We can't raise a generation that is so self-protective that the mere idea of someone else's idea over-ruling their own smacks of abuse.

[notagiraffe]

pitches it not pitch sit.

[notagiraffe]

I had a friend who pushed his daughter to go to Cambridge. really forced her. She didn't get the grade for the subject she wanted to do so he sweet talked a friend who lectured in another subject to give her an interview and she got in. She hated it, lasted a term and ended up doing another subject at a different uni happily. (Then went on to do post grad degrees at Oxford, again happily. That's abusive, over riding of another person's wishes, because it's forcing a long term situation on them which is not what they want. Insisting they go on a day trip to explore some brilliant opportunity really isn't!

[myownprivateidaho]

Why doesn't she want to go? I think that it's all very well saying that she knows her own mind, and obviously ultimately she will take her own decisions about uni. But if she has decided now the she definitely doesn't want to go to Oxbridge that seems itself to be evidence of rashness - presumably like most 14 year olds she has no idea what oxford and cambridge are actually like. Why doesn't she just go along and have a look? Seems strange to me. Also wanting to avoid stress and pressure is a legitimate aim, but does she know that architecture is more high pressure than pretty much any other degree? All the architects I know were pretty much told by they unis that all nighters several times a week and relentless work was the only way they could hope not to fail completely. Architecture students also have their work publicly criticised on a regular basis as part of the assessment process. Speaking as someone who did an Oxbridge humanities degree, the average Oxbridge student does not have anywhere near the kind of pressure put on them than the average architecture student at any uni.

[BabyGanoush]

Not going on this trip does not mean not going to Oxford.

I would try to be generally encouraging in what she chooses, and lay off the pressure in any area.

[NorbertDentressangle]

But equally going on this trip does not mean she will be made to go to Oxford.

[RaeSkywalker]

Glad you've decided against it OP.

FWIW, I know that Oxbridge do these kind of things right through to when you actually apply for university. I went on a humanities residential at Cambridge when I was 17 and had the best time. Decided against applying to Oxbridge in the end as the courses didn't have the content I was most interested in.

As an aside, my DH is an architect (not an Oxbridge graduate). It's a very long course if you want to qualify as an architect, it took him 8.5 years. Lots of people just do the first part/ first and second parts, then do the final part after a break. It might be worth approaching local companies for work experience (if your DD wants to!) the practice he works for have different high school students with them all through the summer term.