Would you say these parents were being unreasonable or a bit stupid?

[katemiddletonsnudeheels]

Another thread just reminded me of this - just wanted to get a 'MN' perspective.

On holiday in turkey with a teenage daughter (15) who is a bit self conscious. Teenage daughter is targeted by local men. Parents find it absolutely hilarious and roar with laughter every time this happens. Daughter is sexually assaulted whilst standing next to her parents on public transport and feels unable to tell them.

On final day of holiday local man asks daughter for date. Parents squeal with delight whooping and laughing (it isn't 'serious', they have no intention of sending daughter on date) but make daughter pose for a photograph with 'suitor.'

Are parents fucking stupid or what?

[Bolograph]

if you have a look at the OLD threads you will find that men in this country can be as bad or as lovely as the ones you criticise

But normally in this country, the victim blaming claim that she was wearing a short skirt and was asking for it is seen as the shit that it is, rather than the sign of a "culture" which we should all admire.

[MeMySonAndl]

Bolograph, I think you are not reading my last post. I'm not picking a fight over this, because the posture you are showing there is not mine.

I don't believe for a moment that men should be allowed to get away with those behaviours, but if you have a look at the OLD threads you will find that men in this country can be as bad or as lovely as the ones you criticise, and many times the same man that is lovely to a woman is incredibly disrespectful to another one.

[Bolograph]

No, the normal position is that if by the local standards, you are behaving in an manner the local culture finds inappropriate you may seem more forgiving than you are

So sexually harassing children is OK in these "cultures", provided the child you are harassing looks she's up for it? What a cesspit these "cultures" must be.

Unfortunately as I said, sometimes you are stereotyped through no fault of your own

So in these "cultures", the locals think it's OK to sexually harass children if they don't give off the right "signals", and there's nothing the locals can do about it as they keep their brains and ethics in their underpants. Sounds like a fucking good reason to go somewhere civilised for holiday instead.

[MeMySonAndl]

Decency is a very subjective word, and I am aware that many things that are "decent" in one country are totally disgraceful in another.

[MeMySonAndl]

No, the normal position is that if by the local standards, you are behaving in an manner the local culture finds inappropriate you may seem more forgiving than you are, and that applies to both men and women. Just like in the UK.

And with that I am not referring to the OP, she should have not been put in that position, she was a child. Unfortunately as I said, sometimes you are stereotyped through no fault of your own.

[Imaspecialsnowflake1]

Wow what a very zenophoic thread. I'm half Turkish spent every summer there and never had this!

[Bolograph]

Oh, and therefore locals assume I am less "conservative" and that they can get away with leery behaviour.

So the basic position is the men can't control themselves, and it's the responsibility of women to make sure that they don't tempt them into bad behaviour? They just can't help themselves. When don't men try actually getting some moral agency and behaving decently anyway?

[Bolograph]

but unfortunately, when the local culture is more conservative, they may be inadvertently giving the wrong signals.

Perhaps the men could learn that abusing women in the street is wrong, whatever "signals" are being given off? Because if their "culture" is that assaulting woman is OK is there are "signals", it's a pretty shit culture, where men are completely lacking in moral agency and in the complete control of their penises.

[Sandbrook]

Contrary what a beautiful post.
You are loved by what sounds like an amazing man. Your knight in shining armour when others let you down.
Sounds like you are replicating that relationship with your nephew.
Best of luck to you all x

[HowBadIsThisPlease]

"but I'm not sure it does much good to keep harping on about it like we can somehow change the past, or make ourselves feel better by painting our parents (those who were well-meaning at the time) of times gone by as pervy abusers."

People are different, so maybe some people need to talk about stuff and some prefer not to.

But - if you're one of the ones who does need / want to talk about how and why it is wrong - it is important to be able to do so. It's unlikely that any of those individual authority figures of the past is going to stand up and say "I was wrong, I failed in my duty of care towards you. In those days we were all still thoroughly in thrall to a patriarchal system in which young women and girls were sex objects to be delighted in by others, rather than agents or subjects of their own lives, and some of the things we said and did violated your dignity and humanity. I apologise. You deserved better."

In the absence of some speech like that, spaces like this can be valuable for therapeutic validation

[bevelino]

My 4 teens were subjected to inappropriate attention by men in Turkey when we travelled to Istanbul for a short break last year. Men even approached me to ask if they could marry one of them. Because my 4 dd's were walking round together they actually found all the attention absolutely hilarious, although I didn't find it funny at all.

[ChipperCharlie]

MemysonandI well put. It's what I was thinking but you put into words so much better than I.

[ChipperCharlie]

Raises a glass to Contrary's older DBro

[VestalVirgin]

Honestly, I have very few clear memories of adolescence and the memories I do have feel 'unfair' as I remember things that 'stand out' so I think I have disproportionate memories of the crap stuff

I don't know, I remember things that stand out, too, and I have some very nice memories ... I fear it might actually be that you had no very nice moments and some very crappy ones.

Terrible parenting.

I now feel so justified in staying in the holiday resort the whole time when my family went to Turkey. I missed some very nice white chalk stone formations, but I just didn't want to go outside ... it was a three-day trip and I was afraid the bathrooms wouldn't measure up to my standard, but now I think I might have been spared worse.

[ChipperCharlie]

Times have changed. To do it now would be shocking

Really? This isn't a phenomena of the 70's and 80's at all. Too many girls in the city centre comp that I teach in, tell me that 'some bloke wanted to pay xxxx camels for me', cue grinning/shy/coy/confident/embarrassed shuffle - too often. How many times have you heard this? After reading OP's experience, it's really not so great is it.....

[Charley50]

Contrary your bro sounds incredibly lovely.

[MeMySonAndl]

I really don't think Turkey is that bad, it is just different cultures clashing.

I come from an area that has a very similar culture to Turkey, in fact, we look pretty much the same. Men in our culture tend to be respectful and very protective, if a man touches a women in the street, chances are a few strangers will jump in and even give him a good beating.

BUT, those same men can be very rude to girls who are, for putting it in a simple way, not meeting the expectations of the culture, and sometimes foreign people inadvertently fall within negative local stereotypes that make the locals wrongly class them as more sexually open.

And of course, foreign girls are NOT more open to sex, but unfortunately, when the local culture is more conservative, they may be inadvertently giving the wrong signals.

I have never had a problem in Turkey, but then I look Turkish and my behaviour is very similar to what would be expected of a Turkish woman (I know quite a few Turkish people and they often comment on how turkish I look). But I have had a horrendous time with men in Morocco, Where I look like a foreigner, therefore locals assume I am less "conservative" and that they can get away with leery behaviour.

I think that it is disgraceful that men behave so badly to young women even in front of their parents, but I bet they go home equally surprised that the parents have just put up with what they know is disgraceful behaviour, without giving them at least a good bollocking, therefore reinforcing the stereotype that when it comes to tourists, they can get away with murder.

[contrary13]

blithering - he is lovely, and he's still the first one in our family I turn to in times of crisis. I was... a late surprise for the family, shall we say? And, he pretty much raised me. The family party when I was 7 months old, and the first time I met my maternal side of the family? He spent carting me around, doing his utmost to stop our mother and grandmother from giving me neat Port to drink. When I was 5, and our middle brother (who is 10 years older than me) had a mental breakdown and tried to kill me, it was DB1 who stepped in and talked him into hauling me back over the safety barrier... because DGM was ineffectual about the whole thing (we'd been left in her care whilst the parents were on holiday). For my 5th birthday, he spent most of his months wages on buying me an actual camera... which kickstarted a lifelong love of photography..., actually made my 'Dougal' cake, and spent the party being climbed on by my friends. He went to parents evenings, and got involved in my schools when I was being bullied; he kept me safe from the parents whenever they rowed, and he was always there when I was sent to our grandparents, even though he was "old enough not to go, but to stay in the family home". He has also been known to step in and warn men off, if necessary - and, actually, stepped in when my DD (19) had issues with a boy last year, too. Because the boy wasn't taking me seriously when I said that he needed to back off and leave her alone, he'd done enough damage, and her father couldn't "see the problem: he's lovely... he drives a BMW!!!". Even now, I know that if I needed DB1, even at 3 in the morning, he'd be there without hesitation. As I would/have been for him.

The one thing that devastates me about how he had to step in and be my parent as opposed to simply my oldest brother? He put off having his own child until 6 years ago, 14 years after getting married to his lovely wife (whom I adore - she is perfect for him!). They are NC with my parents, remaining grandparent, and DB2 (have been since the year I moved out of the family home and there was no longer a need to "double check" what I was up to, I guess). His son, however, has the best Dad in the world, without doubt. And he's lovely, and happy, and everything else you expect an almost 6 year old to be... he's close to his older cousins, my DC, and I'm thoroughly enjoying being "Aunty". I adore him. Even if he is very like I was at that age... [grins]

Yes: the camels thing was very much a "oh, hahahahaha, aren't they funny with their customs?!". Erm... no; I actually found it very frightening, thanks. And I was the child who laughed in the face of fear (hence my escaping of the hotel every day...). Fear didn't become a "thing" for me, it has to be said until my DC1 was born 20 years ago, and I suddenly realised how reckless my nature has a tendancy to be, and how daft that can be...

[steppedonlego]

I had a similar experience, OP. I was 13 when I went to turkey with my parents. On the final day of my holiday they went me off to go and have a wander around the hotel whilst they packed up the room. Got trapped by one of the waiters who forced me to kiss him and touched me up, managed to fight him off me, ran back to the room, parents rolled their eyes and tutted at me, and told me to just stay out of his way and sent me off again. Remember getting in the taxi to drive to the airport and seeing him waving with a leery smirk on his face

[blitheringbuzzards1234]

One of the reasons could be that Turkish girls tend to have lots of protective male relatives to 'keep them safe' and ever since the permissive society of the 'swinging 60's' we Europeans/Americans are seen as being 'free and easy.' They've all read lurid stories about the 60's in the papers and we're all tarred with the same brush.

[QOD]

It's no different now

Went 7 yrs ago and would.never ever go again.
It happened in restaurants, hotel and market and they are disgustingly sexist

[blitheringbuzzards1234]

Oh contrary 13, what a lovely brother you have, we could all have done with one like that when we were younger. It would have demonstrated just how protective/caring a young man can be, instead of being leered at, etc.

I think the camels business was considered to be hilarious because of the older generations belief that foreigners had 'their funny little ways.'

[Jordan1990]

I had a very similar experience, about 13 whole family holiday to turkey, went all inclusive and every time I got food cooked would arrive with roses my nan and parents thought this was lovely and sweet he was 21 and didn't speak a word of English. Came out to a local place with drinks with us and spent the entire evening pawing at me with everyone thinking it was just sweet that this man had taken an interest.taking photos etc and being told to put a smile on my face.
Laying on the beach and our drinks came with a message to meet xx on the beach while giving my family the look of death to say I wasn't allowed, sent me off down to the seafront to have a walk with this man in which he's walked in the sea with me and put his hand in my bikini bottoms and all sorts! Subsequently spent the rest of the holiday in hiding being referred to as the 'queen of darkness' due to my miserable face, fair enough to my family who hadn't realised it had gone that far but I wouldn't leave my girls alone with any man at that age!

Op I just think sometimes people haven't had a lot of experience with shit people and shit situations and are very naive about how these situations can escalate. I go with stupidity on my families behalf rather than bad parenting

[Bolograph]

The men were awful, they grabbed us and touched us and one locked us in a shop

Sounds like a shit place to have a holiday. Still, it's cheap and sunny, which is the important thing, isn't it?

[contrary13]

My parents were a bit like this - although not to the same extent as the OP's, it has to be said.

When I was 10, we went to Morocco - the first family holiday where it was just me and the parents, as my DBs were both out of the family home by then. On that holiday, several fully grown men offered to buy me from my father for X amount of camels, Y amount of camels, Z amount of camels... every time we went outside of the hotel as a family. Even now, 30 years later, my parents still laugh about it. I didn't find it funny in the slightest, though. I found it deeply frightening as a child and, now that I'm an adult and a mother myself, I find it deeply worrying that my parents both laughed and joked along with the strangers who had approached them in the streets to offer various camels for me!

My eldest DB wasn't amused when we returned home and I told him this... but then, he also wasn't very impressed by the fact that I used to escape the hotel each day (because I was bored and the parents were too busy sun-bathing or sleeping to actually watch/occupy me) and run around the small town unaccompanied. Fortunately, there were some kindly shop-keepers opposite the hotel whose wives/mothers used to keep an eye on me, and let me sit in the cool of their shops and watch the bartering between the tourists and the shop-keepers, and the hotel's security guards, after the second day, gave up returning me immediately to my parents and let me drink coke in the hotel bar... but, my goodness, as an adult, as a mother of two who have been 10... it makes my blood run cold as to how lucky I actually was during that month!!!

That was the one and only holiday I took alone with the parents. After that, I went with my oldest DB and his girlfriends, and was taught that when you're responsible for a child/young teenager, you watch them. But perhaps, my parents simply didn't understand that I was a child who wouldn't sit quietly in a hotel lobby for hours on end and do nothing. Because on previous family holidays, I had DB1 to watch me - who was 14 when I was born, and always the one I remember fishing me out of the sea when I got into trouble, or off mountain's goat tracks, or playing endless games of 'tag' with me, or football, or cards, or... well, just generally parenting me.

So, yes; your parents behaviour was odd, OP, but yours isn't an isolated case, I'm afraid. I suspect there's quite a lot of us whose parents just didn't seem to know how to interact with their own offspring on foreign holidays...