To not support my brother dating our cousin?

[ChickenDrumsticks]

My brother has announced he is dating our cousin, and has been for around 3 months. She's Mum's sister's daughter. They have been posting lovey-dovey statuses on Facebook and have (according to mum) got very pissy when people have made criticisms. They both have 2 children from previous partners and are looking at buying a house together.

AIBU to not be supportive of this relationship? The kids are all between 8 and 11 and I worry it could adversely affect them. We live in a small town and it's only a matter of time before their school mates clock on.

We were very close as children and went on holidays etc together. The thought of seeing them kiss and cuddle absolutely turns my stomach.

My sister is with me on this, but mum is in denial saying she doesn't see the problem. He hasn't spoken to me directly about it (the announcement was a Facebook post along the lines of "no one has the right to judge us, love conquers all blah blah blah") but if he does I just can't pretend I'm OK with it

[BoatyMcBoat]

I suspect a Regent would be appointed, and the King/Queen would make appearances within the limits of their capabilities.

[Bogeyface]

And I am sure Bogey would rather have her son with a disability then not have her son at all. However if she could click her fingers and take that disability away I am sure she would.

Yes
and yes.

His disability isnt a burden to me, but it is a massive burden to him and I would take that away from him in a heart beat .. Interesting thought though, many years ago a friend asked me whether, if I was offered a cure for his brain damage, would I take it knowing it would take away his issues but may alter his personalitiy. 20 years later my answer would still be no, because he is who he is because of his disability. But I would still rather that it had never been a question I needed to consider. And of course DS may disagree with me, I should ask him.

Maybe because he was my PFB, but he was just my son and the things we had to do and treatments he needed where just part of our lives. But he has to live with being "Disabled" and labelled as such. He is the one who doesnt get jobs despite being better qualified than other non disabled people, he is the one in pain when he walks too far, who struggles to cook for himself with only one hand that works properly.......

Strawberry I think that you are right in that every test would be done, and if you take that one step further, would the pregnant royal mother be put under intense pressure to make sure that the child with a testable disability was never born, despite her own feelings? But conditions such as Austism and CP cannot be diagnosed prenatally and it is interesting to consider what would happen if (say) Prince George had been born with severe cerebal palsy or autism to a point where he could not fulfill the functions that a monarch would be expected to carry out. One would hope that it would make no difference, but I cant help thinking that excuses would be made so that a younger sibling could take over and very few people would object.

[Headofthehive55]

You could also reduce the risk of having a genetically damaged child if you choose to have children earlier. I.e. There are other factors that affect this not just cousins intermarrying. But we seem to be less judgemental on that.

[Dollymixtureyumyum]

And I am sure Bogey would rather have her son with a disability then not have her son at all. However if she could click her fingers and take that disability away I am sure she would.

[Dollymixtureyumyum]

Sorry posted to early there
But by the same token I realise that children are born with disabilities and always will be. If I could wish for all children to be born without a disability yes I would wish for that (and I am not talking about aborting children with disabilities at all) but that does not mean I think children with disabilities are a burden.
Personally I think the abortion statistics for Down's Syndrome are awful and I am not blaming the parents at all but the doctors and other medical professionals that give such a bleak outlook.

[Dollymixtureyumyum]

Also I don't see disability as a burden. I live my life both in work and out by the social model. And yes I would not wish anyone to have a disabled child, just like i would not wish anyone to have cancer or anyone to die young.

[Dollymixtureyumyum]

I have a disability myself and I work with people with disabilities so yes I think I do have very very very good understanding. I also incidentally have a sister with Down's Syndrome. Why is it so wrong to say I would not wish disability on anyone??? . If someone could take away my disability I would let them in a heartbeat

[StrawberrytallCake]

Bogey maybe I am missing the point. I have a close family member with Downs and from my point of view it is offensive or maybe just a bit sad. I'm trying to work out why and put it into words but finding it difficult if I'm quite honest. I think it's because most people with downs are unaware of the 'burden' some see them as where I think they should be celebrated equally so to say you wouldn't wish that kind of person on anyone is heartbreaking to me.

FYI I would be very happy to have a king with Down's syndrome but I'm guessing every single test is done in pregnancy to ensure this never happens.

[VestalVirgin]

It would creep me out if they were teenagers and had grown up being very close to each other, like siblings ... but since they both were in relationships before and apparently know what they're doing, it is not as bad as it might otherwise be.

It is not legally incest, and if this is the first time it happens in the family, there's not much to worry about if they have children.

You don't have to like it, but I wouldn't make a huge deal out of it, either.

[Bogeyface]

Strawberry I think you are massively missing the point Dolly was making.

She was referring to a child born into the Royal Family with an issue that caused learning difficulties, not whether cousins marrying would cause it, and whether that person would become King/Queen regardless. Prince John was hidden away and quietly forgotten about because disabilities and being "different" (John appeared to have autism as well as other issues) were considered shameful. Things are very different now, thankfully, but it is interesting to debate what might happen if that were to happen again with someone in direct line for the throne.

And "not wishing disability on anyone" is not offensive imo. I dont think anyone would choose to have a child with a disability knowing how much harder the childs life could be. My own son has Cerebal Palsy, I love him, I am proud of him and he is living a happy life. But I wish he didnt have it. His childhood was full of physio, painful operations and other treatments. He missed a lot of school as a result, he couldnt play the same games as his friends. I dont find her word offensive at all.

[StrawberrytallCake]

Obviously I would not wish it upon anyone to have a child with a disability but I wonder what would have happened if Prince George had been born with a disability that caused a learning disability such as Down's syndrome

I'm totally against cousins marrying and procreating (think I exhausted that view earlier on in the thread) but even if this were to happen it wouldn't result in a child with Down's syndrome.

I also think it's a bit offensive to say that you wouldn't wish a child with Down's syndrome on anyone - imagine saying you wouldn't wish a child with autism on anyone - that's not acceptable is it? Much in the same way. Many people with DS live very long and happy lives for themselves and for everyone around them.

[Dollymixtureyumyum]

Yes I did, It was heartbreaking. would be interesting to see what would happen nowadays. Obviously I would not wish it upon anyone to have a child with a disability but I wonder what would have happened if Prince George had been born with a disability that caused a learning disability such as Down's syndrome. Would he still be first in line to the throne?
Sorry pixie it's hard to pick up on sarcasm in a post

[Bogeyface]

I suspect (hope) that pixie is being sarcastic.

Dolly did you see the drama based on Prince John? The Lost Prince, it was heartbreaking.

[Dollymixtureyumyum]

Bit harsh Pixie to say he is a wrongen
I find the whole Royal diseases and illnesses passed on fascinating too. There was a good documentary on it not so long ago

[Pixienott0005]

Your brother is a wrongen.

So is your cousin. Too lazy to look outside of the family tree for a date?

[Bogeyface]

It certainly sounds like there is a case for it not being as spontaneous as previously thought then. I find the whole subject fascinating.

I just really hate sweeping statements from people who clearly havent actually researched what they are saying. "Queen Victoria married her cousin and her kids had/carried Haemophilia therefore cousins should NEVER marry. [GAVEL]" really pissed me off!

[Dollymixtureyumyum]

Yep it def could have been a mutation but historians are looking back along Victoria's family tree on her mothers side and quite a few boys died in childbirth or infancy and one of the problems was bleeding.
Neither has got anything to do with cousins marring thought

[JaneJeffer]

politico.ie/society/when-i-do-taboo
Effects of cousin marriages on the Irish Travelling Community

[BoatyMcBoat]

Spontaneous mutation does happen, obviously. However, the consanguinity aspect is relevant, as a spontaneous mutation can occur in a family and be undetected as the mutation is on a recessive gene. When two people from the same family both carry that recessive - maybe a few generations down the line - then that recessive mutation has a much higher chance of being expressed. That is often the first time anyone is aware of it at all.

These days, there are genetic tests which can be done if you are closely related and want to avoid mutations expressing themselves in your children. In the olden days, they relied on religious edicts against consanguineous marriages.

We hang onto the idea of close relatives shagging as a bad thing in and of itself, partly because there hasn't been time to lose the religious attitude (whether you are religious or not, it's pervasive), and partly because society holds incest in abhorrence as a guard against child abuse.

The actual stats of a possible mutation expressing itself in the context of this discussion do depend ona number of variables, the most important one being that there is a mutation in the first place.

I suppose that, given that mutations do occur pretty randomly, we can also expect that at some point there would be a good mutation which gives a positive advantage to any children it occurs in. (Actually, I think that was a bit of a fad in the 60s? amongst novelists, imagining the next great step forward in the evolution of the human race. I seem to remember reading a few books based on that premise, in my teens.) Anyway, I don't think all mutations are recessive, requiring both parents to carry it, and lack of consanguinity isn't going to help you there.

[Bogeyface]

The book I read said that it was likely to be a spontaneous mutation, which apparently can happen (makes sense as it has to come from somewhere) which is why there was a question mark for a long time over where it had come from.

But either way, its not simply down to cousins marrying!

[Dollymixtureyumyum]

Erm haemophilia was actually in Queen Victoria's family long before she was born

[Bogeyface]

Well there's an informed opinion!

So one family has spontaneous hemophilia and that proves that cousins shouldnt marry, despite there being many explanations for what happened that dont include intermarrying? Ok Professor......

[ParanoidGynodroid]

Famous cousins who married? Hmmm, let me see... How about Queen Victoria and Prince Albert? One son suffered from haemophilia, and 3 of their daughters were carriers, spreading the disease into the royal houses of Spain Germany and Russia. Their grandson Alexei - son of Tsar Nicholas II of Russia - was a very famous case.
Another daughter had 2 sons die in infancy, possibly also of the disease.

Don't worry, though... cousin shagging is just fine and unproblematic

[Lara2]

I confess that I have only read the first and last pages of this thread, so this may have been said already. There was a study in 2013 that was published in The Lancet that concluded that having children with a first cousin doubles your chances of having 'life threatening birth defects'
Says it all really - is it worth the risk?

[Rosina71]

This is not incest! It is perfectly legal to marry a cousin. I have a very large extended family all over the country, and two cousins didn't meet until they were about twenty two and didn't know for some time that they were related. I guess the 'family' familiarity must have been there as they said they were at ease from the beginning. They married many years ago, and have been very happy, the parents of two sons. I think it is 'close', but it is certainly not illegal or incestuous.