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AIBU?

doctor strike

158 replies

JudyWilliams · 09/03/2016 15:17

Bit of a rant. Has anyone else been moved three times because of the doctors
Strike? I'm booked in for ELCS originally today, then tomorrow, then Friday. Now Monday!

Slowly loosing hope! That and I'm now sofa/bed bound due to hip/back complications. I'm just wondering if anyone is in a similar situation.

OP posts:
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stitch10yearson · 14/03/2016 10:35

pepatax, the new contract is more dangerous to patients than it is to doctors. In your job, I assume the evolution you accept is only going to affect you and your immediate family? (happy to be corrected) In healthcare, it affects patients, and that is what the strike is mainly about. The financial part is secondary

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MissTriggs · 14/03/2016 11:01

Peppatax - I've seen my profession change too but I think it is genuinely harder to see these things if you work for a monopoly employer. You and I have probably seen one or two women who have stayed in the "race" (whatever that's worth) and earn a great deal. We are well aware that those women are outliers, both in terms of energy levels and sheer luck. We see the price they paid and we don't want to pay it. But docs don't have as varied a career path. They are in a big communal bubble. A doc. died 35 miles from here the other day and my doc. friends all talked about it despite not knowing him because he was a doctor. It's like a brotherhood. Obviously there are good and (very) bad things about that but it's how we train them to be.

Plus bear in mind that the jr docs are seeing consultants retire at 50 (psychiatry) on final salary schemes... they did have it really good so it's a big adjustment.
Also that when you are in your 20s you are clueless as to the (enormous) value of your state pension scheme - altered or not. You don't appreciate it (the BMA is cynical in not educating its membership to value it more I think).

Plus bear in mind that docs are not trained in advocacy or campaigning.

Also that when you are tired you can't always be a good communicator.

and that their union encouraged them to compare their salaries with hedge fund managers and the five or six people who actually make money in each law firm outside London, not with the mass of the professional classes (think of all the post-doc scientists still paying to work into their 30s)

All good excuses for individual doctors. But I think the negotiators in London on both sides are the cynics here.

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MissTriggs · 14/03/2016 11:10

"Yes, I did have a cry on saturday afternoon because I couldnt look after my patients"

It is this, not pay, that we should be talking about.
Presumably the BMA takes as its starting point that the gov. is acting in bad faith and out to privatise?

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peppatax · 14/03/2016 14:00

stitch I still find it hard to accept that the doctors are thinking of the patients before the pay when they are prepared to strike at all. I just can't understand the logic. "We care so much about our patient safety we are prepared to walk out on them to prove our point"

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LaurieMarlow · 14/03/2016 14:42

Utterly agree with peppatax and gonetoseeaman. Ultimately, the tactics and arguments have failed to move me sufficiently to be vocal in support.

It's the outrage that really alienates me. As if JDs have failed to clock what's been going on with the vast majority of similarly skilled professions in terms of stress levels, pay, conditions, expectations. Or they did clock it and somehow expected JDs to be immune.

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TheSinkingFeeling · 14/03/2016 15:14

Just consider this - is the NHS at crisis point because the service needs changing? Is this not what is trying to be achieved in creating a consistent service so there aren't crisis shifts that require doctors to work so long?

Er, no. The NHS is in crisis because it is criminally underfunded, in order to make simpletons more receptive to the idea of wholesale privatisation.

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TheSinkingFeeling · 14/03/2016 15:15

It's the outrage that really alienates me. As if JDs have failed to clock what's been going on with the vast majority of similarly skilled professions in terms of stress levels, pay, conditions, expectations.

And which 'similarly skilled professions' are these?

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Peaceandloveeveryone · 14/03/2016 15:20

Not teachers apparently judging by the comments on Dr Rants page, apparently they sit on their arses all day and get 14 weeks holiday. Wouldn't have a clue about hard work.
I was going to post a screenshot but I need to obscure names.

This is what I mean by slating other people's skills and jobs, it doesn't help. I am not a teacher.

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LaurieMarlow · 14/03/2016 15:20

Professionals generally. Lawyers, accountants, architects, engineers, finance professionals (of which the vast majority are not investment bankers and on those salaries) third level teachers, upper management in big corporations, consultants, etc.

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AyeAmarok · 14/03/2016 17:41

As if JDs have failed to clock what's been going on with the vast majority of similarly skilled professions in terms of stress levels, pay, conditions, expectations. Or they did clock it and somehow expected JDs to be immune.

I think they genuinely haven't clocked it TBH. The private sector has changed a lot in the last 10 years.

Yes, there are still a few exceptions to the rule that everyone pulls out to point score "my friend's DH was earning over 100k by 28 only ever doing 9-5" etc etc. And there are plenty who had worked their way up before the crash and are still doing OK.

But in reality in the private sector now is pensions are shot to pieces, entry level wages are low for the professions (as in, in the teens), unpaid internships are rife, low job security, people have to pay for their professional exams and membership themselves, unpaid overtime is expected, travel is expected with no time back, no or weak unions, it's stressful, and there is no guarantee of progression.

It's just generally a bit shit to be a younger worker these days.

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peppatax · 14/03/2016 18:09

They definitely haven't clocked it. Neither have teachers. I know they work long hours, it's stressful and they do work in the holidays but most of the time I come and go at the same time as my teacher colleagues (also working at evenings and weekends) but I do it 48 weeks of the year. This is the common problem between the two professions - both appear to think that no one else has it tough.

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MissTriggs · 14/03/2016 18:14

"I think they genuinely haven't clocked it TBH. The private sector has changed a lot in the last 10 years."

I agree. I really wonder whether the union is telling drs that lawyers earn lots of money so they should too. The many many privileges they have that we don't have are invisible to them though - eg the pension, the sick pay, the non-pyramid structure whereby experienced people are genuinely wanted to stay in the job rather than routinely bullied out, etc, etc.

That's how they end up saying daft things like "I could go and work in the city tomorrow and earn a squillion" (and make fools of themselves by saying it).

But it cuts both ways. We have no idea what it feels like to have no possibility of working elsewhere unless you emigrate and the point about the consequences of their mistakes is pretty incontrovertible :(

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gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 14/03/2016 18:44

But the consequences of a nurse's mistake very often also has the potential to be lethal (I speak from personal experience!), and to some extent a paramedic also has the responsibility of acting in a skilled way in a short space of time, in the knowledge that not doing it right could cost a life. We don't feel the need to reflect this level of risk in their lifetime salary however.

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LaurieMarlow · 14/03/2016 18:56

Yes, I guess that's it. And unsurprising given they're a relatively insular group and mix among themselves a great deal.

The investment banker comments always make me smile. As if there are tens of thousands of highly paid investment banker jobs just waiting for them to step into.

A tiny, tiny handful of people are making those kinds of big bucks. The unions should be presenting their case more honestly.

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Runningwithacheesegrater · 14/03/2016 19:14

Of course JDs haven't been immune. We have seen study budgets slashed, workload practically doubling, rota gaps are now the norm and pay has not kept pace with inflation despite GMC, indemnity, college, exam and course fees all rising well above inflation. All of which is paid for by ourselves - this is not the case in other countries. But we have carried on.

The outcry over this contract is because there is a very very real risk of burn out and mistakes being made. Make a serious enough mistake and there is no going back, your entire career is over and there is great appetite at the moment in prosecuting individual doctors despite their working environments setting them up to fail. Stress I can deal with, but there comes a point where it makes no sense to carry on. So the options are to leave the nhs or leave the country.

There is a shortage of doctors, nurses and teachers in this country. A massive shortage. So I don't see how actively making pay and working conditions worse and telling them to lump it is going to help. There is a reason why these are called key workers, if you don't want to hang on to them then other countries will poach them.

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TheSinkingFeeling · 14/03/2016 19:37

I can't believe that you're comparing doctors to professions outside medicine. If a doctor makes a mistake, it can be lethal. Lawyers are ten a penny, so are 'finance professionals' (whoever the fuck they are). Doctors are the brightest and best in any society, and I say that as a nurse of 25 years experience. You private sector fuckers don't have a clue about responsibility.

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parallax80 · 14/03/2016 19:37

I think historically the pay has been higher for doctors because of:

a) probably a bit of hungover entrenched class privilege (plus a bit of sexism? Until relatively recently most doctors were men and most nurses women)

b) increased level of clinical responsibility - the scope for lethal mistakes as a doctor is larger than for a nurse because it includes misdiagnosis, wrong or omitted investigations and wrong or inappropriate instructions to other people, as well as drug errors and failing to appreciate / escalate serious illnesses / changes. In addition, doctors have and are still the person where the buck stops. As an example, as a junior SHO i used to manage a lot of (not pregnant) people with epidurals - one of the side effects is a low blood pressure. The nursing staff are told to contact anaesthetics if the blood pressure falls below a certain number. This is good, because for some people that can be harmful. Other people will tolerate a lower blood pressure just fine, and making it higher unnecessarily can cause other side effects and be harmful. Others again actually need their prescription reviewing to set a higher "trigger" to call, as they have different physiology. My job was to see the patient, assess them and make a judgement about what needed to happen. Do I think it was the hardest job in the world? No, of course not. A lot of it is experience, and knowing what to look for. Most of the senior nurses could probably have done it fine. But, they weren't. So it was my name in the notes and my responsibility for the judgement call.

c) increased levels of non-clinical responsibility including for teaching, audit, service development. The aim of training juniors to be consultants is for them to have ongoing responsibilities for all of these things (in varying amounts). The majority of nurses have not historically been expected to have these responsibilities. Nowadays some do, which they often do very well, and those who do have extended practice (whether teaching or independent prescribing) do have this reflected in their salaries (though not to the extent that perhaps they should - though many of the extended practice roles have relatively little out of hours work, which may be part of the discrepancy). The whole medical education system is essentially a giant Ponzi scheme, where you tell the more senior people they have to demonstrate ongoing involvement in teaching to pass their revalidation / appraisal and therefore they have to do it, but are rarely given any paid time to do this in.

I think there is a lot of blurring of roles in healthcare happening at the moment with advanced nursing practice, physicians associates etc etc developing new roles. I'm fairly ambivalent about this (far more than many of my colleagues), I think there are both good and bad things about it, but at the end of the day there will still need to be a group of people who have final responsibility for non-protocolised judgement calls and tbis will require considerable training and a salary to reflect the investment in training, the level of responsibility etc. Whether we'll be calling them doctors in 50 years time is another matter.

As an aside there was some discussion in 2007/8 about moving junior doctors onto the Agenda for Change payscale which nurses and most allied health professionals are on - it's supposed to reflect the particular skills and responsibilities of a post rather than the job title. It was abandoned because it was thought it would lead to increased Drs salaries.

Apologies for the stream of consciousness.

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TheSinkingFeeling · 14/03/2016 19:38

And don't fucking start about public sector pensions, we've been royally screwed over there.

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gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 14/03/2016 19:38

I do agree with you about all that running. Those conditions aren't right for anyone. It's the surrounding, knock-on arguments I have a problem with.

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gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 14/03/2016 19:42

...increased level of clinical responsibility - the scope for lethal mistakes as a doctor is larger than for a nurse because it includes misdiagnosis, wrong or omitted investigations and wrong or inappropriate instructions to other people, as well as drug errors and failing to appreciate / escalate serious illnesses / changes.

It the nurses who are actually administering these drugs and doing the monitoring in many cases.

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TheSinkingFeeling · 14/03/2016 19:44

It the nurses who are actually administering these drugs and doing the monitoring in many cases.

Don't try that divide and conquer bulkshit. The vast majority of us support out doctor colleagues.

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TheSinkingFeeling · 14/03/2016 19:46

All this talk about 'finance professionals' and lawyers equating to junior doctors really boils my piss. If someone decides not to work in finance, they'll be another grasping cunt along in a minute to replace them.
That's not the case with junior doctors.

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parallax80 · 14/03/2016 19:46

Yes. But what I'm getting at is that nurses give drugs, so they can make an error by giving the wrong drug / wrong amount / wrong route

Doctors also administer drugs. I'm an anaesthetist - I regularly give up to 20 drugs in the course of an operation which I mix and administer myself. So i can make all these mistakes too. But there are lots of things I do that nurses don't (prescribing, making diagnoses, ordering investigations, giving other instructions to nurses) so there are lots of other ways I could make mistakes too.

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MissTriggs · 14/03/2016 19:47

thanks parallax, very helpful.

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Peaceandloveeveryone · 14/03/2016 19:47

You private sector fuckers don't have a clue about responsibility

That's a bloody outrageous thing to say and alienates support- and I say that as a nurse of 27 years.

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