To think sport comes with an element of danger (Rugby)

[DadKeepsCalm1]

In the news today, a group of 70 doctors have written to the government to make rugby a non contact sport at high school.

Although a rougher sport, it really is not that dangerous with the proper equipment and professional supervision.

Also how are we supposed to find new talent, if people are not trained to play proper rugby.

My dss is 16 and plays rugby for his school and its by far my favourite sport. I love watching him play and it would be ashame if the game was spoiled.

DD plays rugby. She's with a reputable club, the coaching is excellent. If children don't learn to tackle properly until they're 18, where are our future top - level players going to come from? All sports carry risks. My ankles and knees are wrecked from competing in athletics. Lots of dancers/gymnasts end up with back problems.

I do think contact rugby should only be taught by fully qualified/experienced rugby coaches. I also don't think contact rugby should be compulsory in schools. Let the children who really want to play rugby learn how to tackle safely, and the ones who don't should be allowed to play touch rugby. Rugby is too full-on a sport to inflict on children who really don't like playing it, there are other great team sports they could be doing.

I live in Wales, you can't say that it's all about training and head position when some of our best players are getting concussed in major matches, you challenge George North that he can't play the game properly. In our news recently there have been a slew of players retiring early because of epilepsy and other major problems stemming from knocks to the head during the game. A friends son recently lost a few days of his memory to a concussion and he's an excellent player. There was a fantastic programme on S4C last year where they looked into concussion in the game and a twenty something player with a good but not top league side was tested and his brain wasn't processing at the speed they would expect for his age even though he only had 'a few' concussions over the years.

It's not the final hit that causes the problem generally it's the build up over the years of knocks and damage. I grew up in a rugby family (my dad lost the sight in one eye due to jostling in a scrum, hilarious eh?) and married into a massive rugby family which is now wrecked and broken from the last hard tackle by one of it's members. He'll be in hospital for the rest of his life. It doesn't just affect one person when that happens.

I know so many people who have been seriously concussed playing, family, friends, a young man who was paralysed and then died of his injuries from playing the 'game'. Something needs to change. My children do a hell of a lot of sport and so far (and yes I am crossing my fingers and touching wood) no one in any game or sport they do has been concussed or broken their necks. They won't play rugby, not because I've forced it, because they have seen what can happen. Brains are beautiful and amazing and fragile and rugby players are becoming huge and fast and hard to stop. Something needs to be done to protect the children and adults playing.

I've loved rugby my whole life but I can't stomach it any more, risking brain injury for points over another team, for entertainment, makes me feel ill now.

Interview with an ex player

"Also, where does it end? For instance, my DD loves skiing and horse-riding... both are sports with risks which I cannot completely mitigate. Should she stop doing these in case she has an injury?"

There is this, and I agree to an extent, but the difference with rugby is that tackling etc is currently an intrinsic part of the game; falling off a horse is something that might happen when you're riding but not something that's supposed to happen. Rugby is more comparable to boxing in that way I guess.

But your dd is not forced to do horse riding and skiing while in compulsory education.

This is the point, this is why the letter is asking for it to be non-contact in school.

It is compulsory in a lot of schools to play rugby, that is a lot of children who don't enjoy rugby and have no desire to play rugby risking a life changing injury every day for something that is not necessary.

If children want to play rugby the same way they want to do horse riding etc they can find a reputable club and train with them.

As a pp said about the horse riding, they would search for a "safe" place to learn, search for a "safe" rugby club if your child wants to learn, if the first one you come across has poor coaching report to RFU or whoever and find another one.

I think the issue seems to be around schools doing something fairly dangerous while not minimising the risks.

Dd goes to a state school. But the Rugby league club most local to us has their coaches come in. They start on bags for tackling. It's all very well done. So far no one has had a rugby injury. But there have been injuries in other sports lessons.

Dd does kick boxing. Which on the face of it is dangerous. However we picked a dojo, with a very highly trained team who prioritise safety.

I wouldn't let her do it with someone barely trained it that wasn't starting her from the beginner level and working up.

I didn't know about this, but then again I am not in UK. I live in SA, so sport wise, very much pushed in schools. You can see how much of a priority is placed on the sport but the amount of bursaries given out to top private schools, just on the child's ability in rugby. The competition between the top schools and rugby is incredibly fierce.

My ds (17) started rugby in high school. This year out of the blue he announced that he is no longer going to play. I was completely shocked as he seemed to love it, never missed a practice, all his friends are boys from the team etc etc. But, he was benched last year due to 3 concussions in a row... I saw all the incidents...I wouldn't say that he had tackled incorrectly, but on each occasion the injury was caused maliciously. There is so much of it that happens in the games, the other team target one player, do what they need to, to get him out...this was usually ds because being a wing, if he got the ball, he would most definitely get the try. There is so much politics within the game too, that it actually spoils it in the end. So when it comes to selections for first/2nd team as they are in that age group now, its not which players deserve to be there...its those whose parents dig deep in their pockets to get their son there. So, with all these factors, he took the decision to stop playing. It is his decision, and I will stand by whatever he decides. His career is not going to be that he will be a Springbok one day, so in the grand scheme of things, it really isn't an issue for us at all.

But, there are boys who want to make a career of the sport and I wish them well. But the boys who I know that wish to make a career of it, are mostly heavy set, strong boys...who up until now have been fortunate enough to escape any injuries. Unfortunately not the case with ds, he is very small framed...so weight wise half the weight of the props etc. The smaller the child, the more susceptible to be injured in my opinion. Ds has had some form of injury every year since starting, including having to have surgery to replace a finger which was purposely trampled on with metal studs AFTER the ball had been passed. Again a targeting move to get him out.

I don't agree that it should be compulsory though, contact or not. Not everyone enjoys the same thing...you either like the sport or you don't.

Teaching children to play without tackles would be like teaching tennis until 18 but with imaginary balls. Yes there is risk but there's risk with all sports and all life.

I had a school friend who was left paraplegic at 18 after a scrum collapsed and broke his neck. He had been planning a career in Medicine and offers for a place at uni, but spent the next 18 months in rehab rather than starting university. I don't think people really appreciate how life-changing the kind of injuries you can get in rugby are. For me that came after a summer spent visiting my friend in a spinal injuries unit. I get that all activities come with risk, but rugby seems like one sport where there is huge resistance to making it safer. I'm in no hurry for my boys to start rugby and I won't be encouraging them towards it when they start high school.

There is no reason whatsoever to make contact rugby compulsory in schools, other options should be available to those who do not want to take part. I personally know two families where a son was either killed or paralysed following a scrum gone wrong. The risk is too great.

My brother was horrified at the idea that he would be forced into playing a game where he would be tackled to the ground by another boy. After considerable difficulty (eventually him simply refusing to move on the rugby pitch) he was 'allowed' to take part in other sports, tennis and football.

If someone tackled you on the street it would be considered assault. I don't understand why we force our children to go through it under the supervision of PE teachers who do not necessarily have the requisite training.

All one has to do is look at the increasing incidence and understanding of Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy to say it is madness to force our children to take part in such a high contact sport.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_traumatic_encephalopathy

Rom being a prominent sport here, there are many boys (I say boys, as girls do play rugby but I don't personally know any that have been seriously injured) that have had their lives altered due to injuries.

Ds's friend at the time, went onto the field at the very first game of the season. He was targeted, the player on opposing team elbowed him onto the collarbone within the first few minutes of the game. I don't just mean bumped, we watched the recording after and the boy being taller jerked his elbow down onto K's collarbone again after ball had passed.

As a result K's collarbone was completely crushed, he has had no end of surgeries, pins etc to hold in place. This boy lived for his rugby, but he was told by the doctors to not even attempt playing any contact sport again. He missed about 2 months of school and fell behind, couldn't play the one sport he loved. He just went off the rails after that. He was caught selling drugs at school last year and expelled. I see his mother from time to time, he is out of control and they are considering sending him to rehab.

I know this could happen to anyone, even accidently, but this incident changed K's life.. we hear of people injured, its different when you know them personally.

Oh, and the boy who caused the injury.........got a yellow card ffs!

Its the purposely injuring of others that is spoiling the game...because they are put under so much pressure to do whatever they have to, to win.

Actually, having now finished the thread, I would consider opting them out of it (assuming this is possible!).

DS played rugby when it was compulsory and we have talked about the weight bands, Wellington School announced they are going to put their boys in weight banded teams. He said it was ok, they didn't need to be as the lightest boys were all in the worse teams anyway. The boys who are good weigh 100-115kg at his age, he weighs under 50kg.

Someone up thread mentioned George North getting concussed when tackling. Yes, he used poor technique in that tackle, and most often when a top-flight player gets injured while tackling they've not put their body in the correct position going into the tackle. So learning the correct tackle technique from a young age is important for top players so it becomes a case of muscle memory.

Tackling, rucking and contested scrummaging should not be a part of compulsory rugby in schools. Touch rugby offers all of the same benefits of discipline and team work but is much safer. Those schools that do teach full contact rugby should have properly trained coaches - both in all aspects of the game and in first aid. The RFUs here should make this a priority, as they have done in NZ and other countries.

Banning it completely in schools is an overreaction.

One of s1's team mates got a huge blocking from the teacher for trying to tackle a player with one arm. The other player was massive apparently and the teacher was punting out to him ow he could've broken his arm.

As a previous poster said, there does seem to be some reluctance to acknowledge that there are risks and that these can and should be minimised. It seems that some think admitting that there are risks and addressing them them would in some way damage the sport. That for rugby to be played properly the risks have to be taken and accepted.

Am sorry but I don't agree. I would be happier if contact rugby was a choice and not compulsory. That is was only taught by qualified people and with appropriate supervision and experience.

I have been interested to read the approach taken in NZ as posted by grouchykiwi. Doesn't seem to have damaged their international chances.

I think it's about time rugby in the uk stopped being so defensive and started looking after its young players properly.

Personally I think there has been a lot done to make things safer.
Concussion has become a huge talking point, it's now taken very seriously. The awareness has grown massively over the last 5 years.
Scrums have been changed so there is less impact involved.
People jumping for the ball are more protected now, not being touched while is the air is more heavily policed.
Moving people from rucks/ mauls by their head or neck is now enforced more strictly as well.
Tackles where people aren't using their arms are becoming policed more.

I know that won't be enough for some but it's not like rugby isn't doing anything about the dangers involved.

Ds1 is small for his age. He will not be playing contact rugby at secondary, unless the school sort them into teams by weight as they do in places like NZ. Happy for other people to let their kids play but mine will not. Even dh agrees with me and he was an avid player of school rugby (he was one of the tallest/biggest kids).

DS (yr11) & his mates play impromptu take-down rugby-style at lunchtimes. Yes sometimes kids get hurt. They could be tripping over footballs instead. The tackling is a big part of acceptable social bonding between lads. So is all contact sport going to be banned, even casual consensual games between kids at break times and in the park, too? Madness this way lies.

"The tackling is a big part of acceptable social bonding between lads"

Why? (Genuine question). The school I work in does not allow take-down style games at any break times - more chance of injury in that than in a properly-coached and refereed game of rugby.

When DS was looking at secondary schools, it was the physical pushing, shoving, manhandling and horseplay in the corridors that put him off the all-boys school immediately. (He's a football goalie, so no physical wimp, and also tall - but that kind of physical violence between boys is no part of his social bonding or expectation, nor tbh that of the school he now attends)

I should point out that a really wide variety of games are played at DS's school at lunchtime - football, basketball, whole range of stuff on the field in the summer. But although the football games in particular are hotly-contested, physical wrestling is pretty well-policed.

Some truly horrifying rugby experiences here

Re the horse riding thing - yes that is dangerous too. When I was working the ICU permanently had a procession of teenage horse riders occupying a bed - frankly I wouldn't encourage my dc to horse ride either (fortunately neither is interested and dd is scared of horses)

Good job the dc enjoy their football and athletics (where they can break a leg or two but spinal and head injuries are extremely unlikely)

When I had horses I was in a&he all the time in seemed, even with top of the range hats/body protectors.
I now do distance running and I know a couple of people who've been to hospital for things as varied as collapsing post race to slipping over a waterbottle and breaking their arm in the fall.

Every sport has an element of danger IMO, I know rowers who've dislocated shoulders, cricketers who've been hit in the head with balls, football players (we have a lot in our office) seem to break everything, my sister was an very good ballet dancer broke a metatarsal, most of my friends have a sport and most of them have had injuries, I do think it is a calculated risk people take

@Teacher: I'm not a teenage boy or an anthropologist, so I am speculating.

Kids are programmed to gain immensely from taking risks, including physical risks. Boys like to practice at finding out who has physical dominance and to interact using physical games to find their own social position wrt physical prowness. I think all that is in our social primate nature.

I thought it was really good that DD developed confidence in physical conflict by going to Judo classes. She doesn't start fights, but she knows she can finish them. DS selected another route to finding out what his body can do, if required.

Lastqueen,

I do think, though, that there is a difference between ports in the 'part of the body injured'.

IMO, broken limbs are just not in the same league as brain injury (which is what concussion is) or spinal injury. It is the TYPE of injury, as well as the fact that injuries occur, that has to be taken into account. Broken bones usually set ... brain injury, not so much.

Of course, it isn't just injuries that can cause harm in relation to sports. For DD's ballet, I worry a LOT more about the potential for eating disorders than I do about the risk of a broken metatarsal - and for those sports where bulk is seen as a benefit, I would worry about the risk of steroid abuse / supplements as well as the physical risks.

Exactly teacher!

Lijkk, you're probably right - but I see no reason why any educational institution should condone physical violence between any pupils, even dressed up as 'an informal game of take-down' or 'just tackling'.

Yes, in the structured coaching environment of PE lessons, team sports etc, physical prowess is tested. But there seems no more reason why boys should be allowed to fight / wrestle at play time any more than girls should be allowed to scratch each other or pull hair.