To think sport comes with an element of danger (Rugby)

[DadKeepsCalm1]

In the news today, a group of 70 doctors have written to the government to make rugby a non contact sport at high school.

Although a rougher sport, it really is not that dangerous with the proper equipment and professional supervision.

Also how are we supposed to find new talent, if people are not trained to play proper rugby.

My dss is 16 and plays rugby for his school and its by far my favourite sport. I love watching him play and it would be ashame if the game was spoiled.

[TheChimpParadox]

The majority of the 'Doctors' supporting that letter were not medical doctors. They were academic doctors.

I believe that the ' data, sample used for the evidence was very small.

[tilder]

An academic doctor is highly qualified in their field. Not sure of the need to put '' around the title - without seeing the report it's impossible to know if their qualifications are relevant.

Does anyone have a link to the letter or the data it is based on?

[TheChimpParadox]

I appreciate that they may be highly qualified but they are not medically qualified.

[TheChimpParadox]

It's not a report is an open letter to the Government - no data provided for evidence. The author of the letter has been on about this topic for years after her son was injured in school rugby match. I believe that previous publications and her findings have been not had any effect - her small sample size and lack of alleged credible evidence.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/12179548/Ban-contact-rugby-in-schools-say-health-experts.html

[madein1995]

I agree rugby is dangerous, because I live in Wales I full on support it (one of the few games I watch) but that doesn't mean I'd play myself, or be thrilled if one of my future kids wanted to play. All sports can be dangerous, but the amount of people I know who've fucked up their knees from it ... A lot of rugby players end up with ruined cartilage. I was born with cartilage problems (activated when I was 14 for some reason) and it's painful, a nuisance and stops you from doing things others do, like running for eg, without worrying. I had an operation to sort mine out, but I don't like the idea of any of my kids being in a rugby team. There's people I know in uni who aren't yet 22, their knees are giving them gyp (only since they started playing funnily enough) yet still carry on, I think they're mad personally.

[tilder]

It isn't automatic that a medical doctor would have the most appropriate expertise.

Thank you for the link, but it is another newspaper article talking about an open letter.

[TheChimpParadox]

Letter is shown in Guardian link

www.theguardian.com/education/2016/mar/02/uk-health-experts-call-for-ban-on-tackling-in-school-rugby

[Height]

It's the compulsory element of rugby I think that needs to be removed from school. Yes injuries can come about from horse riding, skiing, etc. But they are all voluntary even at independent schools.

Rugby is not voluntary at a number of state and independent schools, football is optional but rugby is compulsory for all at some schools.

[TheChimpParadox]

I make the distinction between the two types of Doctors as I think the way it had been portrayed by people assume , as they have on this thread, that they are all medical doctors.

[annandale]

YANBU to think that sport and in fact all activity involves some danger, but YABU in general. There are lots of things that could happen to my ds as he cycles, runs, plays cricket and tennis and swims and plays footie - he could have died in a cycling accident he was in last year - but rugby is a huge participation sport that ramps up the risk that children will have major neck or head injuries to what in my view is an unacceptable level.

At a minimum I think that players should be grouped by weight and build not age, plus a compulsory level of coaching should be imposed on all those providing rugby for the under 16s. Contact rugby should be the assumed standard for the under 16s.

Not many schools provide diving, horse riding, much in the way of complex gymnastics. I think schools also under-provide great sports like badminton, volleyball and basketball.

[annandale]

Children don't do sweep rowing any more, they do sculling, so that their backs aren't totally trashed by unilateral development.

[FunkyPeacock]

I am on the fence about this but have to admit I am thankful that they don't play rugby at my DC's school and it isn't a sport my DS has shown any interest in so far

My cousins (3 boys) played rugby growing up and had numerous injuries and I definitely recall that my Uncle (a doctor) would have much preferred they didn't play

[Dontlaugh]

but rugby is a huge participation sport that ramps up the risk that children will have major neck or head injuries to what in my view is an unacceptable level.

At a minimum I think that players should be grouped by weight and build not age, plus a compulsory level of coaching should be imposed on all those providing rugby for the under 16s. Contact rugby should be the assumed standard for the under 16s.

Not many schools provide diving, horse riding, much in the way of complex gymnastics. I think schools also under-provide great sports like badminton, volleyball and basketball.

^^ This. Great post. Especially the "unacceptable level" re neck and head injuries.

[tilder]

I agree annandale. There is risk in many (all?) sports. My perception is that rugby is more dangerous than most. I don't know if that perception is correct.

To everyone that loves the game, what I would find helpful is some proper evidence. Instead of all the comments that 'I've done rugby for years and I'm fine' or 'but it's character building ' or 'without contact you lose the sport' I would like a proper debate.

Instead of disparaging an open letter by saying it's a small sample and implying it's driven by an injury sustained by the lead authors son and not science. Or implying the authors aren't appropriately qualified. I can't comment on that as I can't find the thing.

But at least please can we look properly at whether there is a problem, and if so how to minimise the risk to keep our children safe? Surely that would be the responsible option?

[Mide7]

I would imagine the risk of head and neck injuries are very small. Although I've no data to back it up.

Nearly every head injury I've seen is due to shit technique from the injured player.

[peckforton]

I think unless you have a PE teacher who is experienced at teaching contact sports then there should be a choice for the children. if children are interested in playing seriously then there are clubs to join with coaches to teach them the techniques. Teachers are expected to be experts in everything.

[annandale]

Not really a comfort Mide7. Lots of people who play sport at school are shit players.

[Mide7]

It works both ways tho doesn't it tilder, people saying they've played X years and never had an issues is the same as people saying "oh I know my friends cousins brother had a son who broke his neck". Rugby is dangerous, it's a violent contact sport but Attitudes are changing drastically, particularly to the issue around concussion. It's taken much more seriously. A lot of sports have been slow on the up take with that tho, I saw a goal keeper in football get knocked out and sent straight back on in football a few years ago without any tests.

[tilder]

I totally agree on the compulsory bit too.

I wouldn't send my child for horse riding lessons if the instructor was unqualified or there was uncertainty or lack of training, for example in how to sit when jumping. Nor would I send them without proper safety equipment. I would also want to know a bit about the horse and it's appropriateness for my child. Before choosing what kind of riding they were doing, I would want to know a little about the relative risks, eg between hacking compared to jumping compared to team chase.

All the above I could do easily and almost without thinking as I know the sport. I would have no idea how to do something similar for rugby.

[TheChimpParadox]

This is an interesting blog about research and the author of the letter. Makes sense now about what I've heard about sample data.

blogs.bmj.com/bjsm/2010/09/07/crying-wolf-when-media-reports-distort-research-evidence/

[Mide7]

I didn't say anything about shit players Anna. My point was risks can be reduced by being taught correct and putting that into practice.

If you don't sit properly you can get injuries. No one is saying sitting is dangerous.

[tilder]

Yes mide7 the anecdotes do go both ways.

The impression given though is either 'don't do it it's too dangerous ' or 'man up, it's part of the game, get on with it'.

Surely there is somewhere in the middle here?

I am interested in rugby for ds2 but at the moment no way would I let him play.

He can go on the road on his bike instead

[TheChimpParadox]

What concerns me about the open letter is if they are saying that tackling in rugby is dangerous for children why are they just wanting to ban it in schools ? If children are in danger why aren't they campaigning for it to be stopped in clubs ? Not just rugby union but rugby league clubs too ?

She is only concerned about schools - perhaps that is because she doesn't have a chance in hell in stopping it throughout the whole sport.

[Dontlaugh]

I didn't say anything about shit players Anna. My point was risks can be reduced by being taught correct and putting that into practice

No, correct, you didn't. Cleverly. You mentioned "shit techniques by players". Reflection but still, blaming the player.
Rugby injuries are a huge issue. I don't get those who think they are not.
Moving forwards, the techniques taught, who teaches them, the age/weight/height issues all need to be examined. Until then, my 3 boys are out.

[jacks11]

I am a bit on the fence with this one. Rugby is a contact sport, so comes with risk of injury. It is no bad thing if these injuries can be avoided or minimised in children/teenagers. On the other hand, if players are not taught to tackle properly until they are over 16, I think it will be damaging to the sport as it is pretty late to learn an essential skill- and may possibly make it more dangerous as an older teen/adult due to lack of skill.

Also, where does it end? For instance, my DD loves skiing and horse-riding. I can minimise those risks in some ways, such as ensuring she wears a ski or riding helmet, or a body protector when riding, has regular lessons with a qualified instructor and only tackles runs/jumps etc within her level of competence. But both are sports with risks which I cannot completely mitigate. Should she stop doing these in case she has an injury?