To be quite impressed re the 'self defence' advice dd was given at school today.

[NorthernLurker]

Dd is in her last year at school and today in their personal and social education type slot they had a class that they all enjoyed enormously and which has rather impressed me.
Basically the head of sixth form turns out to be very experienced at martial arts and on the basis of feedback from students re preparing for life beyond school, he has run a class for the last few years just giving them some very basic self defence tips.
Dd said more than half what he talked about was prevention, advising the lads in particular to walk away, not get involved in aggro and yes that did also involve advising specifically the girls to be careful where they walked alone, which from a 'reclaim the night' type pov is a bit grating because the problem with that scenario isn't what the girls are doing. He redeemed himself entirely though when showing them how you might break the hold somebody has on your wrist. He said something to the effect that 'now if that's your partner or your boyfriend and it could well be, then that's a sign you need to get rid pronto'
I have already spoken at length to both my big dds about DV and red flags but I am just so pleased that all the girls in that class heard that message today from somebody they like and respect. A clear and unequivocal message that abuse is not ok and they can see the first signs and act. I think that it's no exaggeration to say that with just those few minutes today he could have saved somebody in that room so much distress and helped them help other people too.
I knew very little about DV until I was at university and involved in womens campaigns. My school would never have equipped me and my peers like that. AIBU to be really pleased they've covered this.

[hefzi]

Lorelei you can make your hand (on the arm you've grabbed) into a fist, and grab that fist with your other hand, using a really strong yanking movement. It doesn't always work, but it's surprising how much power you can get into the move, and often you can break even quite a strong hold (where someone's expecting you to try, because you're practising) this way.

At the same time a) twist your body, so you're better placed to run once free and b) if you're feeling ambitious, hook up the elbow of your grabbed arm, in the hope you might manage to catch them in the eye/nose with it. More important, though, to get away and run than hurt them.

[ChristineDePisan]

I was told in a self-defence lesson years ago that it is OK to seem rude (agree this is particularly important message for girls, but I'm also trying to hammer it home to DS); and do things that are surprising eg burst into tears or wet yourself.

And don't shout "rape", shout "fire" as it's less likely to be ignored by strangers

[lorelei9]

Got it, thanks hefzi!

[Pixel]

we (particularly girls!) are so conditioned by society to be nice, not hurt people, to play by the rules and so on, that apparently when people (not just girls) are attacked, they try to fight back 'nicely'

This is true, I've never hit anyone in my life so it would go against the grain, however the advice you were given is not necessarily new. My mum is in her seventies but my grandad's advice to her if she ever felt in danger was "don't be a lady"

[Leelu6]

Good tips, zipzap

[NorthernLurker]

I've always had my keys in my hand as I approached my door. Read that years ago and I think it's excellent advice.
This thread has reminded me of a time when I was at university and somebody was walking right behind me but not passing. Eventually I just turned round and said 'WHAT DO YOU WANT'
Poor bloke looked scared to death. I think he was in a hurry but too polite to push past and not fast enough to overtake on the road. He basically fled. I felt v embarrassed at the time. Now I feel quite proud of myself.

[bimandbam]

This is all very relevant today. Poor dds friend (11) was flashed yesterday walking home from school the route her and my dd normally use. They are 11. Both pretty upset as you can imagine. Dd was at art club after school so I collected her.

I am going to ring school later and see if there is anything similar they can do for them. Have also ordered them a couple of personal alarms to carry.

[unlucky83]

The thing is about the two blokes behind me - it is a well used 'walk though' - it goes from one busy area to another - but for some reason it was much quieter than usual.
It was when we were still in one busy place that I thought I didn't want them on my shoulder going through the creepy bit (half empty buildings, deep doorways and narrow alleys) so I did my slow down and try and let them get past bit - when they didn't I did my speed walk through the creepy bit ....so I was always 'safe' but not comfortable having to make those decisions - more angry than scared.
When I was really followed - years apart - it was incredibly frightening. Especially the second time - I thought he had been following me around a mini- supermarket so hung around for ages - and he was still there - thought I was imagining it but then queueing to pay found he was right behind me with only one thing in his basket...I got to the till and pretended I had forgotten something and went back into the shop. He paid and left and went the opposite way I needed to go (shop was on a corner) -still I waited 10 mins or so then checked it was clear before I left. A few doors down he stepped out of a doorway in front of me and said something like 'do you speak French?' I didn't stop, just said no as I carried on walking and he started following me - I waited until I went round a sharp corner near my flat then really ran...glanced back at the door and he was still round the corner so he didn't see where I went (block of flats with a common locked entrance).
I was too scared to put the lights on in the flat -in case he saw them come on and guessed it was me. My flatmate (male) came home to me sitting on the floor in the dark 30 mins later ...and years later I recognised his photo in a newspaper -he had a history of sexual assaults etc.
I now think I should have gone back to the shop and asked for help ...I was too embarrassed really - I know I was lucky.
Actually that is the other thing - never stop - not even to give someone a light off a fag... definitely never get your purse out/go in your bag - 2 (male) flatmates of mine were mugged - a group of boys on a quiet road asked them for change and they stopped and got their wallets out ...

[zipzap]

lorelei the other thing you can do to get somebody's grip off your wrist if your other hand is free is to pry one of the fingers back - little finger is best one if you can.

Get your dp or a friend to grab your arm with their wrist and first of try to just push the entire wrist off (gently - you don't want to hurt them this time ). It's not very easy to do.

Then try again but just aim for the little finger - (gently and slowly!) pull it up and begin to bend it back on itself towards the back of the hand. Your victim helper will quickly loosen their grip and be saying ow, long before you get it anywhere near going beyond vertical and obviously this is the point to stop when practising on friends as they won't let you practice other things... If doing it to a real attacker, do it hard and fast (and bite too if you have your mouth near the hand) and it will really hurt them.

We were also taught the same as Compos - don't knee attackers in the nuts. If you want to aim for that area, putting your fingers and thumb all together as I mentioned below and creating a hard point is a much better way to go - you don't get unbalanced, they're not expecting it or warned by you lifting your leg, your hand will often be in approximately the right area anyway and you can put a lot of pressure through it onto a small area without risk of hurting your hand too much as you would do if you punched. And of course, depending on the trousers that the attacker's wearing, the Grab, Twist and Pull move is really effective too.

[foxessocks]

Thanks to those correcting what I said about kneeing in the buys! I don't want to give out bad advice, that's what we got told but I'm happy to be told it's wrong so thanks at least I know now!

[foxessocks]

Obviously buys should say nuts stupid phone

[NorthernLurker]

I think 'don't stop' is good advice. Don't stop, don't dither, always walk like you know where you're going and you have a purpose.

[MyLifeisaboxofwormgears]

My martial arts training involved the classic karate stuff and the "realistic" street fighting stuff.
For women the advice was, if attacked - punch hard in the face - this causes a momentary "brain blink" where the person is disorientated for a second, then form fingers into a "spear" shape and jab hard at the throat then kick the knee on the side (so they fall sideways) then, when on the ground, stamp hard on the ankle or foot. High heels an advantage there - the main aim was to make sure you could run off fast and your attacker couldn't.

Other really good advice -if they have any sort of visible body piercings grab them hard and pull - that's really wince inducing as well.

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

This is a tip from this book
www.amazon.co.uk/The-Gift-Fear-Survival-Violence/dp/0747538352?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

Its about spotting a potential risky person especially the sort of man that likes to target women. Watch out for boundary pushers. The one's who are just being "friendly" ignoring the fact that you have said "no". The ones who nag you to have a drink, tell them your name etc. Being well socialised as a nice female you politely decline but they carry on. Don't be afraid to be blunt and rude. If they don't accept the first time you say no to something trivial there is a chance that they will not accept you saying no to something more serious.

[Yseulte]

Are you really saying the school didn't provide this until the final year?

First year of my secondary school we had weekly self defence classes, followed up by a lecture every year.

You need to learn all that way before you're 18, particularly if you live in a city.

[Yseulte]

80% of rape victims are under 30, 44% are under 18, and that's not taking into account sexual assault and harassment.

[ABetaDad1]

The advice to sense risk and avoid danger is something I am trying to hammer home to DS1. He is a bright lad but no common sense and at 16 feels himself invincible.

He stares at people walking down the road he doesn't approve of or has an 'issue with' and is going to get attacked one of these days.

I know there are a lot of strong opinions about telling women to avoid danger in the street but in my view its better to be safe than right. I would recommend that to anyone man or woman.

If this were a similar situation in a wild outdoor place we would have no hesitation about giving and following safety and survival advice. Urban areas have different dangers and safety and survival should be similarly heeded.

Getting your front door key in your hand before you get to your front door is a good one and I do it. I hold it so it the point protrudes slightly between thumb and forefinger with my hand in a fist. Then if anyone comes up behind me a stab in the eye or the groin with a sharp metal tipped spear punch will give me an edge.

Although I am a man I have been ill for a long time and am not as strong as some women. I know I can't fight a young male attacker off so am very aware of avoiding situations that make me vulnerable.

[lorelei9]

Zigzag, thanks, that sounds good.

Northern, I'm a bit puzzled why having keys in hand to approach door is good? I mean, I don't stand and faff looking for them but I don't walk along with them in my hand, I keep them in my pocket till the last possible minute. If I lose my keys or drop them in a drain, the nearest friend with a key is a long way away!

[lorelei9]

A Beta, surely, like anything, they could grab them and use them as a weapon against you, then in my case, if they ran off with them, I'd be stuck.

Bit worrying that your son stares like that. Does he do this to kids his age? I'd also worry he'd get hit tbh. I've had someone start on me till he realised I was looking at the clock behind him!!

[unlucky83]

lorelei9 you hold your keys in your hand in your pocket ...so you know where they are -you can get them quickly. It is a judgement call whether to try and get into your house or not - obviously it is worse if an attacker does force themselves into your house with you if there is no-one else in.
And the key sticking out thing (I said I do that too) you are holding them firmly in your hand -they are not going to get them off you - it just makes your fist more painful if you do need to jab someone....

[Yseulte]

Our self defence classes were taught by ex copper with a handlebar moustache. He was such a kind man.

We were taught that if you're being followed walk up to the first house that looks inhabited and ring the doorbell (assuming it's not 3am).

It's better not to lead someone to your house, which the guy may then remember and target you again.

This was back in the 80s - no mobile phones.

[unlucky83]

Yseulte - I have heard that before but (like half of MN apparently they might not answer the door....if you were a lone female would you answer the door at 11pm?
I used to live somewhere where people just didn't answer the door ...my cat had escaped into enclosed gardens - out of 60+ doors I knocked on to ask to look in their garden less than 25% answered...and a lot of them they were obviously in - TV on, curtains twitched etc - and this was in the daytime...
Or they might be out and just left the lights on as a burglar deterrent...

[Yseulte]

Yes I would, putting the chain on first.

I live in a relatively safe residential area though.

[lorelei9]

I live in an okay area but not the best street
If somebody followed me from the station I'd go to the 24 hour shop I guess but if there was anyone else around - usually is here - then I'd yell at them first. I do tell men who are close to my shoulder "what are you doing?" Many apologise!

Re the keys, I'm much happier extracting them at the last second but that's just me. They are always in my pocket. I don't tend to think of using anything as a weapon in case it gets used against me. I'm fit and strong but you make odd decisions under pressure. On,y time I've had to go for someone, some idiot grabbed me from behind in a bar, like a bear hug over my chest. I automatically did a forceful elbow back, then swing round to punch realising I had done it so I'd have to punch with my left hand! Not left handed! Was just an automatic response, doh.

So carrying anything to use doesn't thrill me but I will get an alarm if I can find one that seems like it's easy to trigger but not too easy!! I can see those being a pain.

[OfaFrenchmind2]

On innocent men walking behind you (and creeping you out), a male friend of me told me his mum, a wonderful woman, taught him to always try to cross the road and, if possible, talk on the phone when he is on a almost empty street with a woman he does not know. This way he does not scare her, and he can go on his way without feeling bad.
That could be a good lesson to teach boys.