To think Darren Brown "the push" is horiffic

[MrsA2015]

Just sat and howled through it. Can't believe what I've just watched really. Brilliant but horrible to watch

[Ironfloor]

But at the start of the programme, Chris and the other three participants were told by Dreen Brown that they were not chosen for the programme. Isn't that deception?

[Wadingthroughsoup]

Yes and no! Derren has done exactly the same thing before (telling people they aren't going to be on the show and then setting something up for them at a later date), so those participants would have been well aware that there was a chance something could happen further down the line.

I have always assumed Derren has people sign contracts to that effect (or at least asks their permission to set them up at an unspecified time).

[Dumbledoresgirl]

I agree that none of the 'pushers' were realistically affected after the event. It was obviously faked imo. I mean, I wouldn't do it as I said earlier, but if for some reason I was going to push someone off a building, I imagine I would run up to them and use my forward momentum to add to my strength, and really push them hard. I did not see that at all last night.

You would expect them to be crying hysterically or pacing up and down with adrenalin, or vomiting or cowering in a corner, not just quietly walking away.

I don't watch a lot of DB but a previous episode that sticks vividly in my mind was the one I think was called The Heist when he planted subliminal messages in people's minds leading to totally normal people deciding on the spur of the moment to rob a security van at gunpoint. I didn't believe that one either. And I sure don't believe all the circumstances of The Push.

[Ironfloor]

Hmmmm, I agree. Now after having read some of your replies, I'm convinced the whole show was staged.

[Sallystyle]

Yeah, you wouldnt do a farty push would you?

You would also probably scream? Or fall to your knees, or do something dramatic, not give a farty push then turn your head and cry a little.

Perhaps I will give it a go one day and report back.

[MrsA2015]

Does anybody think the whole experiment is actually being carried out in the way of ISIS recruiting? As in they follow all of the same steps and are goaded into doing something evil?

Just a thought

On the other hand is this just making excuses for any kind of sick behaviour?

[APlaceOnTheCouch]

Lots of organisations use similar techniques eg at the most basic level, advertising uses NLP and it was used throughout ie repetition of 'whatever it takes' from the ads at the beginning right through to the comments on the roof. Sales people use manipulation to box customers into a position where they think their only option is to buy that product at that time.

Hasn't there also been research done that shows that as a coping mechanism in times of stress, your brain will inhibit your shock responses so that you disassociate from shocking events? I remember reading about it in a study on gaming.

There's lots of basic psychology at play but it's rather disappointing that they don't acknowledge at all that the chosen people being fans of DB has an impact. Then again, maybe they're assuming that's obvious. It's also nonsense for the participants to say it's had any positive impact on them at all. They're not going to be more aware and less able to be manipulated because they don't even understand what happened to them to take them to that point. Chris was absolutely right when he said you can't live your life being wary or suspicious. But then he was the one who was least susceptible in the end.

[Ironfloor]

Then again, if he was staging it, wouldn't be make them act more convincingly? I.e. React more after pushing the man off the wall?

[Oddoneout63]

I do find DB very uncomfortable viewing. Don't mind his illusions and stage act, but these elaborate setups make me feel that people are being manipulated in a nasty way. We know some people are more easily influenced than others - we're all human and open to suggestion. Why go to these lengths to demonstrate it?

[00100001]

the difference with the ISIS thing is that (I presume?) that as the pusher, you think that person deserves to die. Where as this was all about getting themselves out of trouble!

It was a double whammy, kill someone to make you less guilty.


What would have been interesting (if none of the pushers were actors) is if they showed four episodes, or did the four stories in their fullness?


Surely if it was real there would be interesting points with the other three??

[FATEdestiny]

These kinds of genuine social experiment are exceptionally rare because of the difficult in arranging them. As such they are published in scientific journals and widely debated by the scientific community.

I wonder of the Great Derren Brown experiment will find its way into British Journal of Psychology or British Journal of Social Psychology?

Of course it won't.

Derren Brown is a magician. He does tricks. He does tricks of the mind using actors.

It was all faked. The only people being manipulated is the audience.

I seriously doubt the tv company is remotely interested in what's being said in one corner of mumsnet.

See, that is exactly how many of the 'Big Magic' magicians work. They go into minute faked details that you would think 'surely no one would bother doing that'. But that fake detail and use of actors is what makes the big magic work.

'The Show' will certainly have a team of psychologists employed. Would it be unreasonable to think that as part of their day-to-day employment by the show that they are asked in the days following screening of the show that they search the internet and further perpetuate the fakery on discussion boards and forums. That would cost, what, a grand or so in salary costs for a few days work monitoring the main discussions forums online? Considering the budget for the show, not that much.

[EnthusiasmDisturbed]

of course it was fake

they would not be able to do down to ethical reasons

as others have suggested read the Milgram experiments and the Stanford Prison Experiment and there are others (can't remember names but will be in all psychology books) they are fascinating but done when ethical guidelines were well not quite what they are today

its frightening just how easily we can be manipulated to follow orders

[LittleLionMansMummy]

But why would they need to FATEdestiny? All they're interested in is that people are talking about it. And they are, without hoardes of psychologists applying big wooden spoons to stir things up. All they'd need to do would be to look at the Twitter reaction - yes people are interested, people are talking and it's quite controversial, so let's do it again but even bigger and better.

[LittleLionMansMummy]

I mean Marmite base their entire marketing campaign around the fact that it divides opinion.

Did we receive the viewing figures? Yes.

Are people talking? Yes.

Is it controversial? Yes.

Well job done. No need for employees to troll these boards as it's of no consequence to them if people believe it or not - some do, some don't in much the same way some people believe in ghosts or fortune tellers. There's no such thing as bad publicity.

[Gildo]

I'm really confused... Why are people talking about these people like they are victims...?
If it wasn't a set up, 3 of them would be murderers. So why are people feeling sorry for them..? Am I missing something??

[JessieMcJessie]

I was interested that " Tom" the bloke doing all the suggesting was Scottish as I have read more than once that people find Scottish accents the most trustworthy of all British accents. I'd have thought people were less positive towards us since all the referendum hoo hah but Derrem knows his stuff so we must still have the power to dupe the English with our dulcet tones .

To me the thing that tang most false was the way Bernie just sat quietly for ages on the edge of the scaffold while the discussion went on behind him, when only seconds earlier he'd been ranting and raving. That was a huge clue it was a setup.

I do hope the pushers were all actors as they have really fucked ip the rest of their lives by agreeing to be seen on TV being persuaded to kill someone.

The reasoning for killing Bernie was also really stupid- no sane person thinks that murder is a safer alternative to having to explain to police that you mistreated a dead person who was actually alive all the time. Is that even an offence?

In my view demonstrating that people would move the body and pretend to be Bernie was enough to prove Derren's point.

[venusinscorpio]

The reasoning for killing Bernie was also really stupid- no sane person thinks that murder is a safer alternative to having to explain to police that you mistreated a dead person who was actually alive all the time. Is that even an offence?

Exactly. And I think I'd have said - er no, you want to push him off, you can push him off, it's nothing to do with me, and I'm going to fuck off and leave you to it (and call the police). Clearly it's wrong, and it's obviously very likely you wouldn't get away with it. People tend to notice when people fall off high buildings.

[JessieMcJessie]

I agree- their choosing Chris as pusher had no basis whatsoever! I'd have told Tom to fucking do it.

[ChipsandGuac]

It was crap. The three pushers were clearly actors, and not very good ones at that.

[APlaceOnTheCouch]

One of the actors (I think it was Bernie) popped up in the comments' section of The Guardian to say he was an actor but the people being duped were members of the public not actors.

[DisappointedOne]

Milgram is the reason we now have ethics committees for scientific research. I doubt TV shows are required to consider ethics to the same degree hence some of the shite that gets shown. I found it fascinating and don't believe any of them were actors. During times of emotional pressure you just don't see things that you would if you were perfectly calm.

[APlaceOnTheCouch]

Disappointed I think I've found the reactions almost as fascinating as the programme! Despite all the evidence about coercion and compliance, people are always still convinced that they would be different. And yy a tiny fraction of them wouldn't comply but there will always be some who will.

[00100001]

Yes, but we don't know how many people they got through with the bell test.


They had 2000 responses to the audition - but how many of them got to go into the room, we don't know - and from that they whittled it down to twelve(?)

SO, even if they had 50 people enter the room, it's still a small proportion of people.


And even if they had only 1 reject and all the others complied. THat's still only a dozen people.


Consider the type of people that would apply in the first place too. Only people who either think he's amazing and want to be on the show, or people who think he's a 'fraud' and want to prove something. That dismisses the majority of the population.

You're left with people who are susceptible, or proving him wrong - these "disprovers" wouldn't make it through the bell test. left with 12 complaint people.

of which they chose the four most compliant.

So, I think it's fair for the majority people to say they wouldn't be coerced in that way.

If he had just chosen 12 random people and put them all through the launch night test. Then it may be that no-one pushed. Or only one.


Also,you have to have someone who believes that the main organiser would be paying them that much attention on the 'biggest night'. It would strike me very odd that the main guy was with me all the time and not schmoozing the guests and benefactors.

[varicoseveronica]

I watched it last night and felt very disturbed.
Most people would have a go at CPR nowadays and it's not difficult to assess if someone's breathing but the push scenes were horrible.
I do hope the participants were actors.
Its put me off watching anything with DB again.

[DisappointedOne]

Ha couch! DH turned to me when the guy was asked to stick flags in the sausage rolls and said "no way in hell would you have done that! You'd have read him the riot act!" (I'm veggie ). Remember that the guy thought he was going to get a big contract out of this - I've certainly done things I wouldn't otherwise to advance work opportunities with clients!