To think Darren Brown "the push" is horiffic

[MrsA2015]

Just sat and howled through it. Can't believe what I've just watched really. Brilliant but horrible to watch

[MimiLaBonq1]

I didn't see this but assume it was a TV show based on the Milgram experiements. In France there was a TV show a few years ago based on the same experiement. No idea how they got round the ethics but it was quite interesting. Not done in the name of entertainment though, more as an experiment to see how far people in a TV game show would go under pressure. You can read abuot it here: content.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1972981,00.html

and here:
www.psychologytoday.com/blog/21st-century-aging/201003/in-shock

I can't comment on yesterday's show of course but don't really see the point in it, as similar was done so recently and widely reported upon at the time;

[Hihohoho1]

But everyone knows people can be persuaded, coerced, brainwashed if you like to
Commit dreadful acts. That's not new is it?

So why on earth does he feel the need to demonstrate that on tv.

It was trashy nasty and uncomfortable. Unfortunately that seems to be par for the course now on TV.

[Omuelltonne]

Knowing something does not mean that one is mindful of it in one's everyday life. I'd argue that it's a welcome reminder in an age in which young Muslims are being encouraged to kill in the name of an ideology that is more about bloodlust and self-aggrandisement than religion. As Brown pointed out at the beginning of the programme, social compliance can come in response to an ideology, not just a group of peers.

[SalemSaberhagen]

Aplace they didn't know it was an experiment.

I am watching it now, they have just SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER

put the guy in the crate.



This is bad enough, imagine thinking you've just seen a man die and having to do that. They had no idea how he would react to that.

[NewLife4Me]

Didn't he do this a few years ago? I remember watching it and was quite impressed tbh.
I like Derren though, he's the first to stand up and say none of it is real.
magic is an illusion and the ability to connect with the dead is not what the celeb mediums do.

[APlaceOnTheCouch]

Salem I just assumed that the disclosures they signed before taking part would have caused them to think that it may be a psychological project/experiment.

[SalemSaberhagen]

They were told they hadn't been selected. Whilst the experiment was ongoing, they had absolutely no idea.

[Omuelltonne]

My point still stands. If a man goes online, chats to someone he believes to be a 13-year-old girl, starts chatting her up and then arranges to meet, but it turns out it was a policeman all along, he'll end up in prison, even though there was never a real victim. On this Derren Brown programme, there was no real murder victim, but the dupes did genuinely believe they were killing someone. OK, so there was a lot of manipulation in the mix, and social pressure, which was the point of the show, but in their minds they believed they were taking someone's life.

My point is that though we might (might) be justified in crying 'entrapment' in the case of these dupes, we cannot rely on the fact of there being no real victim, as we already have another arena of criminal law in which the lack of a real victim is considered utterly irrelevant.

[tiggy2610]

I assume the study people are referring to that was ended prematurely due to psychological distress caused was actually the Stanford Prison Experiment (1971), and not Milgrams 1961 electric shock experiments? Although both can be used to show the effects that were demonstrated on last nights programme. I saw Zimbardo speak in London in 2011 and he was fantastic, his version of events after the experiment was finished was very different to some of the documented cases of long term damage, however agree experimenter bias may be present.

As a previous poster mentioned, Milgrams electric shock experiment was replicated in France a good few years ago with 'contestants' shocking others to win a holiday. The BBC recreated the Stanford Prison Experiment in 2002 and was extremely interesting watching. Ethical Committees will have been included in all aspects of the planning of last nights show and I believe it was done to show how susceptible we all are, irrespective of whether we believe it or not. All of the people who took part did respond to an advert and were screened extensively before hand to ensure they were suitable. If they were picked off the street randomly that would have been as unethical as it comes. Very glad to hear Chris is ok, me and DH were hooked last night

[LittleLionMansMummy]

I'm with you op. I love Derren Brown, partly because he's honest about his techniques, but I struggle to watch his social experiments as I refuse to believe I would be capable of these acts. But in reality, terrorists use these kinds of tactics to recruit people so it's clearly not a ruse. I am fascinated and terrified of psychology in equal measure. I spent the whole time last night willing the main guy to resist and to prove Derren wrong. Then he brings the others on at the end and I'm horrified. As an optimistic who sees the good in people, I find it an incredibly difficult, yet addictive watch. I console myself that there is an element of him 'choosing' his candidates who are more suggestable/ easily coerced. I hope I wouldn't fall into that category. But it's an incredibly dark side of human nature that might explain some of the worst atrocities in history. I scoffed many years ago when my psychology teacher taught us about how crowd mentality can result in people chanting "Jump! Jump!" to people threatening suicide. Bloody awful.

[Hihohoho1]

Yes but it can also be used as an excuse to commit despicable acts.

Young Muslims from western democracies are choosing to join IS and are fully aware of their actions.

These experiments allow adults to absolve themselves of responsibilities.

The people who pushed are despicable. They should be ashamed. Wonder if they are?

[SalemSaberhagen]

Now I've finished it, I am aghast that the pushers could laugh off the fact they murdered someone. Well they didn't, but they thought they did. It was scary. And kicking the dead body made me feel ill.

I'm normally a huge fan of DB but that has left me feeling a bit queasy.

[LittleLionMansMummy]

Hiho, I don't disagree but think it bears close study so that we gain a better understanding of human psychology in the hope that we might prevent things in the future. There is some evidence that terrorists 'groom' their subjects. While not wishing to absolve them of responsibility for their future actions, knowing about their techniques might help combat it. I know that this is hugely different from doing this for entertainment but the questions it raises are nonetheless pertinent.

[Omuelltonne]

Exactly. They knew that to push would equal murder. They did it anyway(with the exception of Chris). There was no real victim, but should that really matter? As I've said above, in other areas the absence of a real victim is not considered relevant.

[waterrat]

I think the person on here pretending to be Chris friend is a fake poster working for the tv.company

[LittleLionMansMummy]

I seriously doubt the tv company is remotely interested in what's being said in one corner of mumsnet. The success of Derren Brown and his stage shows/ tv programmes speaks for itself. All they'll want to see is the viewing figures and critics reviews.

[Dumbledoresgirl]

I watched it last night. I think the ones who pushed the man off the roof were acting at the time, not genuinely doing it. And not acting all that well either. Their pushes were far too weak and tentative to convince me they genuinely thought they were murdering someone.

I was amazed that any of them went along with almost any of it tbh. I don't know about the mis-labelling of vege food - I might be coerced into doing that - but no way would I have agreed to hiding a body! Everything else led on from that one act.

But then, I am pretty sure I am one of the people who would have been eliminated at the application stage as I can't see me standing up and sitting down at the ring of a bell either.

[00100001]

From the viewers POV it all really cringey writing.

[Wadingthroughsoup]

I agree with you Dumbledore.

I think that, on some level, they knew it wasn't real. (Possibly because they had met Derren Brown a few weeks/months beforehand and signed some papers which would allow them to be subjects in one of his experiments!)

I would expect someone who was in that situation to be hysterical, traumatised after the 'act'...not just having a little boo hoo and a hug.

Also, (I suspect this makes me a bad person and you will all tell me so) I found much of the earlier part of the show pretty funny. It was because it was all so farcical. Putting the body in the crate etc. I suspect that on some level, Chris was thinking it wasn't real. A bit like the guy that took part in the zombie apocalypse one a few years ago.

As well as looking for susceptible people in the selection process, I am fairly certain that Derren is also looking for people who enjoy drama, role play, practical jokes etc. People who are willing to suspend their disbelief and 'go along' with something if it makes for good entertainment.

[APlaceOnTheCouch]

YY I think there is an element of suspending disbelief. I have been totally sucked in by this thread and am now watching it on catchup. My first foray into DB programmes

SPOILERS - SPOILERS


There's also the fact that they know they volunteered to go on a DB programme at an earlier point (even though they thought they were rejected). You can't tell me that they wouldn't have had a conversation with their friends where someone suggested that actually maybe they were selected so they could be secretly manipulated later? Then the celebs in the fake adverts are all ones who have appeared on DB programmes. So it's creating a subtle psychological link.

I also do wonder if they just don't show the people who walk because some people would be compliant in the bell situation but not compliant at mis-labelling sausage rolls or at hiding a body for example. Being compliant with bell ringing doesn't create any conflict with your internal moral compass whereas the other stages do pit your wish to comply against your moral code.

[00100001]

It's interesting that they only showed the episode where he didn't push. And as it got worse and his confidence grew, he was questioning things all along, especially the treatment of the dead body.

Surely, they must have screened these people (if we're to believe all four are genuine) To find 4 people that have never seen a dead body (Sorry, but it's bloody obvious when someone is dead) that have no sense of what to do in an emergency, no CPR/First Aid skills?

I get that in an emergency you would maybe just do as you're told. But once the adrenaline dies down, you start to think about it properly.


I don't think anyone could actually be convinced to push a live person off a building by strangers. No matter how you built up to it.

[Wadingthroughsoup]

Sorry to sound grim but I thought the dummy corpse was amazing. I wonder how much it costs to make one. (Not that I want one- I just thought it was fascinating what can be done).

[Cel982]

This thread is making me so curious, but I really don't want to watch it... anyone willing to give a brief summary of what exactly happened?

[SalemSaberhagen]

I'm surprised none of them made the Bernie/Weekend at Bernie's link!