Skip to main content
Skip to main navigation
Skip to talk navigation

Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Saved Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

Flip

1 2 3 4 5

AIBU?

Any HR-ish people about? AIBU that they won't adjust how I'm paid?

121 replies

LoTeQuiero · 26/11/2015 17:30

Genuine AIBU here. I've namechanged as if I were outed it would be fairly disastrous!

I started working freelance for a company at the beginning of the year. It wasn't supposed to be a freelance position but I couldn't do the office time they wanted so we worked out a pattern that we were all happy with. We agreed an initial pay scale which paid x amount for x amount of work (in terms of research and carrying it out). Fast forward six months and now I'm finding that each piece of work is taking around double the amount of research so my output is lower but time spent working is longer.

They now want me in the office 3 days a week. This is difficult for me because of childcare but it is do-able. However they now expect me to pay for my own travel and carry out the complicated pieces all based on the same pay scale. I have explained my position to the CEO (politely!) during a conversation with him and also to my first line manager via email but they have both said the same thing which roughly goes - tough, you agreed at the beginning and the requirements haven't changed. Except they have, the complexity of the pieces has increased and the amount of research has soared.

I am not an employee of the company and I just don't know if what I'm asking is reasonable (moving to a more time-based payment scale, i.e. contracted to, or an agreement for, x amount of hours in which x amount of pieces will be produced). I haven't been specific but I have listed my issues (in a non-combative manner) and they don't want to know.

If I turn it down I suspect they will start to phase me out but if I accept then I suspect that a) I will lose money and b) I will be incredibly resentful and feel like I've let myself down.

However if I'm BU then please, please tell me and I shall suck it up!

TIA x

OP posts:

Report

pluck · 02/12/2015 18:16

she and the CEO had been impressed with my quality of writing

"Fine words butter no parsnips!"

rainydaygrey · 02/12/2015 18:20

Exactly. You can't eat that!

pluck · 02/12/2015 19:21

You can't transfer praise into your mortgage or rent account, either!

You've done the right thing. They would have screwed more out of you at the cost of your financial situation and your reputation (and let's not forget your ego!).

talkinnpeace · 02/12/2015 19:40

You can't transfer praise into your mortgage or rent account, either!
ABSOLUTELY

Most people who want stuff done for a pittance are on decent salaries and forget that others are not
yes BBC I'm talking about you

GreenTomatoJam · 02/12/2015 20:13

I freelance. I discovered that one client was pushing his luck because he felt that as a mother who wanted a job to fit in with the kids, I should be grateful for what I could get. He tried to stiff me on fees, I negotiated (extremely reaonably - went to the minimum we'd agreed to rather than the actual hours spent), then threatened court before he paid.

I learned then, that good clients are reasonable, and pay up (I have these). Bad clients try to screw you for everything they can get.

Life is too short for bad clients.

LoTeQuiero · 02/12/2015 21:20

This is a tough lesson. BUT - this is also MN at its very best! I'm loving all these stories about strong action against piss- taking clients

OP posts:

NoSquirrels · 02/12/2015 22:50

I reckon they're going to come to an agreement with you, LoTe. Wait and see . . . if they are about to launch and have been happy so far, but just wanted more bang for their buck, then they probably don't want to mess about briefing and sourcing a new copywriter in short order. Agree it will be organisational expansion stuff that they've just not thought through.

Time will tell - will be interested to hear the response in the end.

RealityCheque · 02/12/2015 23:21

I really don't mean to be rude here, but if standing up for yourself (and your business) against bullies leaves you 'literally shaking' just by sending an email then I would question if you are really cut out to be self employed.

No matter how good you are at the actual 'work', this kind of negotiation is pretty key to running a successful business. If this really is so difficult, do you have someone else that can do the negotiations on behalf of your company?

This is not meant to be negative towards you - bear in mind that most businesses do not use the same staff to 'do the work' and 'do the negotiations'. They are different skills and I would be concerned that the senior manager you are dealing with may have you out-gunned in terms of experience and attitude here - you are being too nice.

LoTeQuiero · 03/12/2015 00:23

Reality - I completely get what you're saying. I suppose all I can offer in return is that a) I instinctively felt what was wrong and what was right and b) I did actually screw up the courage to do it.

Am I cut out for it? Maybe not. The shaking stopped after the initial reaction but I am fairly new to this so...time will tell.

OP posts:

LoTeQuiero · 03/12/2015 00:24

Squirrel - I shall let you know as soon as I do! Thanks so much for the support.

OP posts:

RealityCheque · 03/12/2015 00:34

That's good to hear. Hopefully it was just first time nerves and you and your business will grow from strength to strength!

RB68 · 03/12/2015 00:43

Its a bit like standing up to bullies it gets easier. Well done on getting so far, it will feel good whatever the outcome. Ebs and Flos are apart of being a freelancer and are hard to get used to at first, we have been working on one contract that has gone from 150k to 24k for now - about half way though I said to OH that they couldn't stomach the full cost upfront they need it chunking up and that is the way we have gone - its not helpful to us especially as the scope is not currently set and seems to change each time we speak. I still think they are not thinking strategically about it. I am not best at getting them to sign - OH is better but its usually done on something quite loose and I get in a panic about it all not being tied down. After 6 yrs I still get anxious but when you get the good clients its great

LoTeQuiero · 03/12/2015 10:15

A response! Of sorts. Wtf is this?!

"Thanks for your email.

The scope of the project has not changed. The reason I have requested you

work from the office is to assist you in meeting the standard and quality

required.

I am happy for you to continue to work from home provided that the quality

of your work is at the requisite level and accords to our brand

proposition and customer journey, which I have explained to you and which

you have told me you understand.

Regards"

Working from home, fine. He has completely ignored the main issue which is the time each piece takes me. How do I respond??

OP posts:

LoTeQuiero · 03/12/2015 10:25

How about:

"Thank you for email, etc.,

I understand the brand proposition and customer journey inasmuch as you have explained it.

As I've said, I'm happy to work from the office if this is necessary, but not under our current agreement.

And the price per piece also needs to be renegotiated to take into account the extra working time each one requires, as I mentioned in my previous email. "

Something like that?

OP posts:

NoSquirrels · 03/12/2015 10:48

Well. He is conceding on the office, but sounds like they will continue to nitpick/be a bit obstructive. And it doesn't address the fee-structure.

I like your email, as short as his! You need to use his language about the "scope of the project" back at him, though, and address strongly the point about quality of your work. You don't believe the fault is on your side, do you, so he needs to be clear you don't accept that.

How about:

"Thank you for email, etc.,

I understand the brand proposition and customer journey inasmuch as you have explained it. As far as I am aware, my work has been been up to the required standards of quality, as you mentioned in your email XX DATE. If this is not the case, then more clarity is required from you and your team on briefing me.

As I've said, I'm happy to work from the office if you believe this to be necessary, but will need to charge appropriately.

The scope of the project has differed from the original agreement we made on XX DATE, as at that time, each piece was considerably less demanding in terms of research, and I priced my work accordingly.

Please let me know how you would like to proceed.

Yours, blah blah

LoTeQuiero · 03/12/2015 10:55

Yay, Squirrel! That's a great email :D

No, I don't accept that any drop in quality has been my fault and this is corroborated by the fact that I have only ever been asked to re-write one or two pieces for minor issues. I was briefed at the start, left to it, wrote accordingly, my work checked and then accepted each week (always accepted!) and over time he/she seem to have changed their minds as to what they actually want.

OP posts:

LoTeQuiero · 03/12/2015 13:10

THIS is the initial email that the whole issue about work load/pattern/location arose from. The email was written by the lady, not CEO:

"X and I have been discussing your role at XXX and wondered if you might consider a change of position. We have been impressed with your freelance work for us and would like to offer you a contracted role that would entail your presence in the office - where you would become more involved in the creative processes of XXX and other websites. We would be happy to offer you a salaried position, either on a full time basis (with some days working from home) or a part time position - pro rata - but in the office.

Of course, we would need to discuss the details fully, but, as a concept, we wondered what your initial thoughts were."

The conversation I had with the CEO was very, very different.

OP posts:

LoTeQuiero · 03/12/2015 13:13

And this is my reply (not sent yet):

"Thank you for your email.

I understand the brand proposition and customer journey inasmuch as it has been explained to me. As far as I am aware, my work has been been up to the required standards of quality, as Jane mentioned in her email 12/10/15:

"X and I have been discussing your role at XXX and wondered if you might consider a change of position. We have been impressed with your freelance work for us and would like to offer you a contracted role that would entail your presence in the office - where you would become more involved in the creative processes of XXX and other websites. We would be happy to offer you a salaried position, either on a full time basis (with some days working from home) or a part time position - pro rata - but in the office.

Of course, we would need to discuss the details fully, but, as a concept, we wondered what your initial thoughts were."

If you have concerns and this is not the case, then more clarity is required on briefing me as the standard of my writing doesn't appear to have been called into question.

As I've said, I'm happy to work from the office if you believe this to be necessary, but will need to charge appropriately.

The scope of the project has differed from the original agreement as it was set out on 27th April, as at that time, each piece was considerably less demanding in terms of research, and I priced my work accordingly. This now needs to be renegotiated in light of the increased volume of work per piece.

Please let me know how you would like to proceed.

OP posts:

MovingOnUpMovingOnOut · 03/12/2015 13:17

That email is about you becoming an employee. That is a job offer and puts a totally different spin on things as I describe above.

If you are an employee and salaried all this paying for a piece of work becomes irrelevant. You are paid a salary regardless of your output and if something takes longer, it takes longer. If you are under performing (in their opinion) they have to address this with you as they would any other employee (or let you go in the first two years by just giving you notice).

I think you need to consider very carefully because things seem to have gone off on a tangent and you may be fighting a battle you don't need to have.

Do you want to be their employee for three days per week? Or full time? And if you do you need to negotiate it as a job offer. If you do not and want to stay freelance as you are then you need to make that clear and agree terms.

I still think the emailing back and forth doesn't help and that a phone call or face to face discussion would be much better and avoid confusion and crossed purposes. As you say, the CEO has a very different idea to the other woman.

MovingOnUpMovingOnOut · 03/12/2015 13:18

"That email" refers to the one in your 13.10 post.

mamas12 · 03/12/2015 13:27

That does sound like a Staffjob offer
I would make an appointment to clarify as a face to face meeting with concerned parties would clear it all up in one go hopefully and the. You can then go away and make your decision on what exactly they are offering you and want you want the

mouldycheesefan · 03/12/2015 13:29

If you sent me that email I would say I would find someone else. You are becoming high maintenance asking if they are calling into question your written work.

The working in the office is now sorted, that is a win for you. Now focus in the pricing.
Do not get stroppy. They are your customer. You may not find another!

I agree that freelance work is not for you if you can't manage basic negotiations on price.

Don’t want to miss threads like this?

Weekly

Sign up to our weekly round up and get all the best threads sent straight to your inbox!

Email address

Log in to update your newsletter preferences.

You've subscribed!

NoSquirrels · 03/12/2015 13:35

Hmm.

So they ARE offering you a contract (as per Lady's email) or they AREN'T (as per discussion with the CEO)? Sorry, not quite clear.

If they are offering you a contract then you need to negotiate as if a job offer not a freelance pricing structure e.g. salary, perks, holiday allowance etc. Weigh up sick pay etc. Would 3 days a week on a 12-month contract work out well for you, 2 days at home, 1 day in the office, say? Work out what salary you need to ask for to take it.

If actually the CEO is saying "sorry, changed our minds it ISN'T a contract for a job on offer, but carry on as you are for the same pay but come into our offices to do it" then it's very irritating.

You need some clarity on what they want.

LoTeQuiero · 03/12/2015 13:45

That email was written over two months ago and nothing of the sort has been raised since. No employee job offer made or discussed.

When I went in, the only discussion was around working location. No different role or change to employee status was made. They want me to stay exactly as I am, charging a price per piece and pay for my own travel into the office. I posted that first email to show where all of this started from. It seems that the lady and the CEO are singing from very different hymn sheets.

Mouldy - everyone has to start somewhere, surely? As far as I can see they are not making it easy for me but I am still dealing with them in the best way I can.

Squirrel, yes, that seems to be what has happened..........But I am not prepared to work for them on harder pieces for the same pay. It would literally cut in half (or less!) what I earn.

OP posts:

LoTeQuiero · 03/12/2015 13:53

Well, I've emailed them back and said outright that working for two hours and being paid for one is not something I can do.

Watch this space.........

OP posts:

Flip

1 2 3 4 5

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.