Any HR-ish people about? AIBU that they won't adjust how I'm paid?

[LoTeQuiero]

Genuine AIBU here. I've namechanged as if I were outed it would be fairly disastrous!

I started working freelance for a company at the beginning of the year. It wasn't supposed to be a freelance position but I couldn't do the office time they wanted so we worked out a pattern that we were all happy with. We agreed an initial pay scale which paid x amount for x amount of work (in terms of research and carrying it out). Fast forward six months and now I'm finding that each piece of work is taking around double the amount of research so my output is lower but time spent working is longer.

They now want me in the office 3 days a week. This is difficult for me because of childcare but it is do-able. However they now expect me to pay for my own travel and carry out the complicated pieces all based on the same pay scale. I have explained my position to the CEO (politely!) during a conversation with him and also to my first line manager via email but they have both said the same thing which roughly goes - tough, you agreed at the beginning and the requirements haven't changed. Except they have, the complexity of the pieces has increased and the amount of research has soared.

I am not an employee of the company and I just don't know if what I'm asking is reasonable (moving to a more time-based payment scale, i.e. contracted to, or an agreement for, x amount of hours in which x amount of pieces will be produced). I haven't been specific but I have listed my issues (in a non-combative manner) and they don't want to know.

If I turn it down I suspect they will start to phase me out but if I accept then I suspect that a) I will lose money and b) I will be incredibly resentful and feel like I've let myself down.

However if I'm BU then please, please tell me and I shall suck it up!

TIA x

[talkinnpeace]

Dear Bill,
I'm reviewing my workload and client base and now that I've done a fair bit of work on the projects for your firm, my rate per day will be £nnn as from 1st December for days worked from my office with an additional travel fee of £nn for days where I work in your office.
Regards
LoTe

[NoSquirrels]

Definitely don't just roll over on their terms.

My DH is self-employed/contracts. If a client wants to change the terms of the initial agreement (work from home for X hours/days per month/week at a rate of X per hour/per day etc.) then the initial agreement is void and the negotiation over rates and terms etc. starts again.

Some small-medium businesses, especially if expanding rapidly, don't really have an idea about what's reasonable and how to handle freelances. They expect the perks of having an employee. So you need to tell them.

Agree, explain again to the CEO, slowly, that the hours & terms you initially agreed as mutually beneficial are not now on offer if he wants you in-office instead of home-based.

Don't worry too much about them looking elsewhere. If you've done good work so far it's probably more hassle for them to start again with someone new. You need to value yourself and your services highly as a freelance or no one else will, so be assertive (but nice )

I would say something like:

^Dear CEO,^

^Following up on our last discussion about more hours and changes to the terms of your agreement with me, I'd just like to set out a few thoughts on your proposal.^

^On [XX DATE] you employed my services as a freelance to undertake [YY TERMS OF WORK AGREED] per [WEEK/MONTH} from home. We agreed a fee of [£ZZ] for the above.^

^If you would like me to now complete the work on location at your offices, I will need to charge a day-rate of [£ZZ] per day.^

^As also discussed, the estimate of hours needed for the work to be completed and the number of projects which I work on per [WEEK/MONTH] needs to be renegotiated, as the scope of the project has evolved - each piece requires on average [XX HOURS] research and [YY HOURS] writing.^

^I would be happy to discuss changing the way in which I charge you for work completed and efficiencies in workflow to give you the greatest value for money.^

^I'd just like to make sure that we're on the same page regarding the terms of my freelance agreement - obviously this relationship is slightly different to an employee of the company, and so I need to weigh up against my other clients the opportunity cost of devoting 3 full days in-office to your company. I would not be able to work for 3 days in-house on the current terms of out agreement.^

Yours...^^

[wasonthelist]

OP I would just add as a former self-employed contractor in an HR-related area -

Most employers (in particular managers and HR folk) have no idea what being self-employed actually means in legal and practical terms.

You need to be thick-skinned to put up with jibes about various things.

You have to free yourself from the mindset of being a worker or an employee and start to think of yourself as running a business which is providing a service to another business - as others have pointed out, the more you allow a company you are working for to treat you as an employee to be "managed" i.e. directed/controlled, the more you risk creating a relationship of employment rather than a business providing a service.

Work out what is sensible/profitable and then proceed in that way - I and all my self-employed friends have turned down work that would be unprofitable or too difficult to deliver.

Good luck - I loved being self-employed - I only went permie due to lack of work in my line and the government and HMRC's constant farting about with the rules :)

[talkinnpeace]

I charge more for my time on a Monday morning as it clashes with my Yoga class

I've been free range for many years

[LoTeQuiero]

Ah, those are great responses - thank you all so much! I am currently paid per piece of work submitted - which is what is causing the issue. Initially I was completing four per day which is what is expected (I am told) but now the subject matter is tougher it's only two per day............ But I'm not being paid any more.

[LoTeQuiero]

I'm not very good at standing up for myself!

[MovingOnUpMovingOnOut]

Self employed and an HR person here. I totally agree with the advice that you get paid per piece of work. It saves so much hassle and disagreement!

It sounds like they are proposing you become an employee, working 3 days per week in the office. That's fine only if you want to do that. There are some benefits to being and employee (paid holiday, pension etc) but you can't claim for travel to your usual place of work or dictate when or how you will deliver the work agreed.

I really think you need to stop letting them tell you and start making counter offers. Counter offers that suit you. Eg I can do X, Y and Z and it will cost £XXX. I will do A but will not do B. And do not email. Negotiate in person or on the phone if possible. Only send emails with full proposals.

Yes they might well be very attractive but they also appear quite lazy. You have less work because they haven't given you the work?? The CEO who you deal with doesn't know what's going on?? How much time and expense do you think they are going to go to to find someone else to do the work you currently do?

[NoSquirrels]

Hmm. See, I probably wouldn't agree to piece-work, I would always agree an hourly rate or a day rate. My thinking is that if you are a professional, and therefore not someone who is going to take the proverbial, then the company should be happy to pay you on that basis - there should be some trust. Piece-work sort of implies a lack of trust.

However, if they wish to continue on that footing I would agree X per month, and have it written into you agreement that they provide you with X subjects at the beginning of each week (so stops the things only coming through at 5pm on a Friday) and up your rate for each piece. Blah blah "having evaluated over a number of months the hourly rate for each piece" etc. is your line for negotiation.

Really, companies will get away with what they can, so don't be afraid to push back. Businesses don;t often make money by trying to pay above the going rate, after all - they will pay what they can get away with.

[MovingOnUpMovingOnOut]

I think it depends what it is. I charge a day rate when I'm on site because I might get asked to do ad hoc things or give advice but most of my work can be easily and accurately costed by the piece. I do it along the lines of you want X,Y,Z that will cost £xxx per person/page and agree it first. Then if it takes longer that's tough for me, but if I'm more efficient that's good for me!

The quality is always the same (excellent) because you're only ever as good as what you deliver.

It does mean you have to negotiate up front but ime that's so much better than negotiating or quibbling later. I let a client go who used to quibble over every single bill when I was charging accurately and fairly. In fact I wasn't charging for all the extra admin he created and I should have been. I now work for other clients earning much more thankfully!

[AyeAmarok]

I'm not an HR person but I do think they are taking the piss a bit with you OP, like they are banking on you being too weak/polite/desperate for the work to pay you fairly.

What would a confident man do? He wouldn't let them dictate like this. Channel that!

Best of luck.

[LoTeQuiero]

Thank you everyone - you're all giving me a very different perspective.

I shall sit at my desk this morning and conjure up an appropriate email. Hopefully! I'll update later :)

[LoTeQuiero]

Thank you everyone - you're all giving me a very different perspective.

I shall sit at my desk this morning and conjure up an appropriate email. Hopefully! I'll update later :)

[LoTeQuiero]

OK, I've drafted the following which is Squirrel's work adapted to my circumstances (thank you Squirrel)........I'm too nervous to send it without a more experienced opinion though!!

"Hi X,

Following up on our last discussion about more on-site hours and changes to the terms of your agreement with me, I'd just like to set out a few thoughts on your proposal.

On 27th April (date of the contract) you employed my services as a freelance writer to undertake writing a number of pieces per week from home. We agreed payment for the above according to a set banding structure based on the allocated word count. Working on-site regularly changes the terms of this agreement.

If you would like me to now complete the work on location at your offices, I will need to charge a day-rate of £180 per day, plus travel expenses, based on spending six hours on-site per day.

As also discussed, the estimate of hours needed for the work to be completed needs to be renegotiated, as the scope of the project has evolved - each piece requires on average at least one hour of research time plus one hour of writing time to maintain the highest quality. Previously it was possible to complete one article per hour in terms of both research and writing and the payment per piece was based on this assessment of time.

I would be happy to discuss changing the way in which I charge you for work completed to ensure that there is maximum efficiency in workflow to give you the greatest value for money.

I'd just like to make sure that we're on the same page regarding the terms of my freelance agreement - obviously this relationship is slightly different to an employee of the company, and so I need to weigh up against my other clients the cost of travelling to, and working from, the office on three days per week. I would not be able to work for three days in-house on the current terms of our agreement.

Kind Regards, etc."

I'm really scared that they'll reply with "Sod you then, we'll find someone else." How easy would that be to do? I'm not sure. I do know that they want me on board though.

[mouldycheesefan]

I work in HR and I wouldn't be getting involved in this as you are a supplier not an employee.

However I think you last paragraph that you can't work in site for here days is very negative, if you can't do three days what can you do?

If you don't want them to tell you to stuff it then use the letter to open negotiations and tell them what you can do rather than what you cannot

[NoSquirrels]

Well, I think its fine (but I would !)

Taking on board mouldy's thoughts about it being negative, take the last sentence up to paragraph 3:

If you would like me to now complete the work on location at your offices, I will need to charge a day-rate of £180 per day, plus travel expenses, based on spending six hours on-site per day. I would not be able to work for three days in-house on the current terms of our agreement.

and take para 5 down to the end of the letter so you end on a positive:


I'd just like to make sure that we're on the same page regarding the terms of my freelance agreement - obviously this relationship is slightly different to an employee of the company, and so I need to weigh up against my other clients the implications of travelling to, and working from, the office on three days per week.

I would be happy to discuss changing the way in which I charge you for work completed to ensure that there is maximum efficiency in workflow to give you the greatest value for money.

If you have a suggestion about what would work better e.g. a guaranteed number of pieces per week/month etc. then add that in. Catch more flies with honey, etc.

[MovingOnUpMovingOnOut]

I think it's too long and too much asking for their permission. I also think you need to be really clear what their proposal actually is because at the moment from what you have posted it is perfectly possibly that what you are being offered would make you their employee.

But then I wouldn't do it by email. This is still at negotiation stage so I wouldn't dream of putting it in writing until you have more firm proposals agreed. The written word can be misconstrued too easily.

I would also make sure the client knows that you value them (currently I'm not getting that from your email) but that they are not your only client and you have responsibilities and obligations to them too which you have to consider.

[Mistigri]

My DH regularly negotiates by email, but it really depends on what is normal practice for your client. If you do negotiate by email, keep it short and very clear.

A piece rate for work is fine, as long as you have the opportunity to turn down individual pieces of work if the rate proposed is too low. My DH (who is a freelance translator) often works at a flat rate, but he checks the project proposal very carefully first to make sure that the equivalent hourly rate is adequate (in practice flat rate jobs tend to be his most lucrative, but only because he is very picky).

If you can't pick and choose, then I would be looking to set an hourly or daily rate, or set a rate per word that increases according to the complexity of the material.

As an aside, DH reckons that saying "no" just often enough makes his clients all the more pleased when he says "yes" ;)

[RealityCheque]

And get rid of the "on the same page" bullshit. A professional dialogue should use professional wording.

[LoTeQuiero]

Thanks for all of the input :)

It is normal to negotiate via email - I very, very rarely go into the office and I really cannot imagine a situation where I went in specifically to work this stuff out.

At the moment I get paid according to word count:

300w=X amount, 500=X, etc. It was worked out on the basis that I would produce X number of pieces per hour, so essentially I was working for around £40/hour which is OK. Now the pieces are more complex, they're going to take me double the time which halves my hourly rate, obviously. We have also changed the way in which the pieces are allocated and completed (relevant because this deviates from the original agreement). I don't want to work on-site for three days, I want to work from home and have the time to complete these pieces to a high standard, rather than rushing to get them done because otherwise I won't get paid.

[MovingOnUpMovingOnOut]

I find the telephone avoids unnecessary travel and the pitfalls of emails when the proposal is still rather vague. I also mostly work from home and only go onto a client's site to do work so it's important I get this stuff agreed up front.

I still think you need to clarify whether what they are offering you makes an employee because as an HR professional I would be concerned that what they are suggesting does potentially due to things like the level of control, and lack of right of substitution (you can't outsource the work if you're on site).

I've also done a bit of copyrighting and there's no way I'd go on site unless it was necessary to the job and suited me.

[MovingOnUpMovingOnOut]

This explains the common law tests to establish employment status well:

www.rossmartin.co.uk/employers/essential-know-how/171-employment-status

Have a read and see how what they are proposing fits.

[LoTeQuiero]

Thank you Moving.

This is actually getting me down now. He's dicking about with the brief, there's no solid proposal, I re-write what he wants and then I'm told that I don't seem to have grasped the way he wants it pitched and it would all be a lot easier if I were on-site. And have I decided yet?

I'm going to look at that employment thing now

[MovingOnUpMovingOnOut]

I would be fairly confident that once he realises that having you on site changes the relationship to such an extent that you might be an employee that might put him off a bit.

Employees are more expensive than just an hourly rate.

I'd also say that for new pieces of work having a face to face meeting is totally fine. But you are free to decline the work and decline the work after having the meeting. You're also perfectly entitled to charge what you like to attend a meeting on site and he's perfectly entitled to go elsewhere for the work.

You have my sympathy with the dicking about. It's infuriating.

[LoTeQuiero]

OK, this may be the version that I actually go with:

Dear X,

Apologies for the delay in responding to your initial email about future work. Following up on our last discussion about more on-site hours and changes to the terms of your agreement with me, I'd like to set out a few thoughts on your proposal.

On 27th April (date in the contract) you employed my services as a freelance writer to undertake writing a number of pieces per week from home. We agreed payment for the above according to a set banding structure based on the allocated word count. Working on-site regularly would change the terms of this agreement, as does the new method of working proposed, i.e. without the constraint/structure of a template.

If you would like me to now complete the work on location at your offices, I will need to charge a day rate of £180 per day, plus travel expenses, based on spending six hours on-site per day. Alternatively I can do one day per week of 8-81/2 hours on a Wednesday at a rate of £240-£255 per day, plus travel. It's not viable for me to work from the office under the terms of the original agreement.

As also discussed, the estimate of hours needed for the work to be completed needs to be renegotiated, as the scope of the project has evolved and the working method has changed. Each new piece requires on average at least one hour of research time, sometimes more, plus one hour of writing time. It's necessary to allow for this time in order to keep the emphasis on high quality rather than quantity. Previously it was possible to complete one article per hour in terms of both research and writing and the payment per piece was based on this assessment of time. Jane mentioned that you would expect four pieces per six-hour day to be completed but currently that isn't something that is possible. A clear, written brief for each element of this project would also be helpful to ensure that your expectations are met.

I would be happy to discuss changing the way in which I charge you for work completed to ensure that there is maximum efficiency in workflow to give you the greatest value for money.

I'd like to make sure that we're thinking along the same lines regarding the terms of my freelance agreement - obviously this relationship is slightly different to an employee of the company, and so I need to weigh up both the increased volume of work and the costs of travelling to, and working from, the office. I'd love to work on a larger scale for XXX, but I have to make sure that it's financially viable.

It seems reasonable to me?!

[JemimaHighway]

The rest is great!