I'm sure I'll be told this isn't bad enough for SS report but...

[HomeJames]

What would you do?

Family member has a somewhat chaotic lifestyle that is impacting on her children. I and other family members have offered help/support but all has been rebuffed as attempts to 'get at her' 'make her feel bad' and 'interfere'. Her usual lines are 'I just don't have the same standards as you/ don't need to be held to your impossibly high standards' or 'I have a different lifestyle but the kids are happy enough'.

She split with the children's dad 2 years ago. Since then, she has had three boyfriends with overlap or a very short gap between relationships starting/ending. The children are introduced to the men straight away and two of them have been moved in to the family home after a month or so. The first one was nice enough. The second was a drug user and we suspected domestic violence. There was definitely a lot of screaming and rowing because neighbours kept telling us about it. We asked them to call the police if they heard anything but they never did, so no opportunities for authorities to get involved that way.

The latest one might be OK, we won't be introduced to him until he moves in probably. She picks the children up every afternoon from after-school club then takes them to his for tea and they sometimes stay the night there. Both children are behind at school and the older one is supposed to attend an early 'catch-up' class most mornings. Because they are out with the boyfriend or at other friends house most nights they have late bedtimes and little time to do any homework. They are also late for school quite often, so none of this helps with their learning. Between us, we're taking it in turns to do the odd pick-up/ breakfast at ours to offer some stability and a decent bedtime, but it's confusing for the children and not always possible with other caring and work responsibilities. We are also starting to worry that we are enabling the behaviour.

Finally, I suspect she may be using drugs herself. When the last boyfriend was living there, I popped over one night (kids all in bed) and they were both stoned and offered me drugs. I don't know if she is still doing this with the new boyfriend, but it might explain some of her mystery 'illnesses' where she cannot get home or get the kids to school and calls on help, and she has lost lots of weight.

House is filthy and smells, but probably not bad enough to be on social services radar. The children don't seem unhappy but they do seem confused about who all these men are, and don't seem to know whether they're coming or going with no routine. I think they're missing out a bit on their education, but perhaps neither of them is behind enough or has SN idenitified, so they're under the radar.

Like I say, we have all offered help, but think the time has come to stop enabling the behaviour because it hurts to watch it. I see a lot of threads on here where SS is suggested but there is a backlash of 'you clearly don't live in the real world, SS have real problems to deal with'. What other options do we have now? School, NSPCC. Kids are too old to be on health visitor radar.

[NameChange30]

Unreasonablebetty
Woa there! I think you've read some things into my post that I didn't say or mean. Suggesting PD as a possibility is not the same as saying that everyone with a PD is a bad parent. Suggesting something that could explain her behaviour is not the same as excusing that behaviour. Clearly her behaviour is wrong whether or not she has a PD. But if she does have a PD it would be helpful to recognise it so that both she and the children can get the help they need. Please don't take that as a personal attack. It's not a comment about you or anyone else with a PD. So please don't accuse me of stereotyping anyone - I'm not.

[BigChocFrenzy]

"Unless something awful is happening"

That's far too late then to decide to get help.
The idea is to avoid it becoming an emergency, say when one of these random blokes lashes out at a kid disturbing his hangover.
Or they leave drugs around and a kid gets stoned.

Really important: the kids education is suffering in this chaos; they are late for school, not doing homework, falling behind in class, even missing out on the catchup class.
That's their future being ruined, by their mother prioritising her "fun" over their "essentials"

Yes, I'm judging her parenting, which I consider below the bare minimum standard.

[Unreasonablebetty]

AnotherEmma-
I'm sorry. I might have jumped the gun there, I just read it as you were saying that it looks like she has a PD and that's why she's acting the way she is...
And I just felt it was unfair, because i try very hard to make sure that my health issues don't impact on my daughter, and without ever being offered any support our family is fine.
Sorry if I jumped on you, I just don't think that there's any excuse for a parent not meeting their child's needs, no matter the circumstances.

[MrsMook]

I think as a combination of circumstances, it is worth raising with the school. They may have the children on their radar (sounds like they do from an educational perspective for a start), every piece of evidence adds up, and helps add up to action.

[TitusGibbonicus]

The fact the kids are being carted off willy-nilly (poor routine) to the latest boyfriend's house, no time for homework (poor routine), and getting into school (poor routine again) is shoddy and comes across as selfish. This is as well as being introduced to their "new daddy" 3 times in a short space of time, one of whom may well have given mummy a slap and was at least so verbally aggressive the neighbours could hear... these are some of the small things that add up Tali, and small things that snowball with kids so that they could be more likely to develop personality disorders or attachment disorders later in life, or whose experience of education is sub-optimal and doesn't let them achieve what they are capable of.

[TitusGibbonicus]

*into school late

[OnTheEdgeToday]

I dont think you are being judgmental in the slightest. I think you are seeing things as they are and ate able to see this isnt exactly an ideal lifestyle for her children, which it is not.
If you are hesitant on reporting to CS (i didnt read past the first page), then i would report your concerns to the school.
Being late, not attending suggested early classes, no homework etc. Will all be monitored. You might have a piece of the jigsaw that is needed.

From what you have said, it sounds like she is a little bit stuck/lost - not realising the impact she may be causing on her children. A little guidance probably is needed, onlg unfortunately when families try to guide, it sets off some kind of rebel button, and makes some people do the opposite.

[ConferencePear]

The president of the Association of Directors of Children's Services said recently -
The role of the community in helping professionals in the sector to recognise signs of neglect is crucial. A neighbour can play a vital role in identifying parents/carers who may be struggling to appropriately care for their children; who with some support could go on to adequately support and care for their child themselves and be able to lead happy and successful lives.

Please do report this so that the mother and her children get the help they need.

[OnTheEdgeToday]

If if makes you feel any better - i reported my sister. She suspected me instantly and has never spoken to me since.
It was a hard decision, and it is sad that i lost my sister because of it.
I couldnt live with the alternative though. Having thar constant niggling worry hanging over me. Once i passed the information over, i knew i had done the right thing. Maybe one day, she will see i only had her childs best interest at heart.

[CasualJersey]

Ok
The family needs help.
There are a plethora of services available and they are there to provide this help.
The children's best interests are clearly what you hold dear and that's what is the main concern.
I would call SS, you might well find, as PP have discussed, that there have been concerns raised already and you are therefore helping to build case for help.
Ss are not going to remove these children.
In our county we have specialist family workers under the title
'Supporting county families' these outreach workers work alongside schools and the family to help.
You would be foolish to let this go.
Drugs in the house, from essentially unknown strangers, is a safeguarding issue.
I would also call the school and inform them.
The school won't discuss anything with you but they hold a great deal of information they can share with SS and it would help them to know what's happening so they can prepare this information.

What's worse? Interfering and being wrong or not interfering and something going wrong?

Let is know how this goes OP

[20applepies]

OP - you obviously have concerns about the children otherwise you would not have posted. Dont contact NSPCC for advice, please take the responsibility and inform SS of your concerns. SS will assess the situation and go from there. These children are vulnerable and should not be at risk from the lifestyle choices at adults.

[NameChange30]

Unreasonablebetty Thanks.
"I just don't think that there's any excuse for a parent not meeting their child's needs, no matter the circumstances."
Totally agree with you. Not excuses, maybe reasons - and those reasons should be addressed.

[NameChange30]

20applepies
"Dont contact NSPCC for advice"
WTF?! The two things aren't mutually exclusive. She can contact NSPCC and social services. There's nothing wrong with contacting NSPCC first.

[Borninthe60s]

I've done child protection training as part of my job.

None of those things you mention when taken in isolation (except the drug use and violence) may be out of the ordinary for some families. However as you've witnessed a deterioration over time I would imagine school have too. Please speak to a member of staff at school and preferably the head. Also contact the LADO (local authority designated officer) at social services by all means and NSPCC. Keep a record of who you speak to and ask what action is likely.

These are vulnerable children and mum sounds like she is too and may need support.

Good luck.

[20applepies]

Another Emma - perhaps my wording wasn't the best about not contacting NSPCC. My thoughts are this would delay any assessment of the situation by SS. Furthermore if OP contacts NSPCC for advice and the advice is to contact SS, surely NSPCC have a duty to refer to SS to safeguard the children rather than just give advice to OP to contact SS.

[JoffreyBaratheon]

I've been down both roads re. my neighbours - informing the local Children's Services directly and, another time, the NSPCC. I actually felt the NSPCC kicked more arse - not only getting the SS involved but also the police. Have just had to do it again this afternoon. NSPCC will do a lot more than advise - they will get the relevant people to swing into action, if necessary and the police contacted me to ask if I was willing, if needed, to give evidence in court - after emails to the NSPCC, not after me phoning SS direct. (Which I felt reassured by, because (a)it meant I was being believed and (b) it meant something might finally happen to help those kids. Twice now, SS have been called it, visited weekly for a few weeks then, apparently signed them off with the scary behaviours continuing unabated, so I would take that quote above from the President of the Association of Directors of Children's Services with a bit of a pinch of salt.

But I have developed the attitude that I will keep screaming from the rooftops til something happens to help those children. NSPCC do seem to be pro-active. I would also contact the school. I regret not doing that too and now the Head of the village primary - who I knew well and had some rapport with - has left and it is a stranger. I wish I'd picked up the phone to her, as well, when she was still there and regret that I didn't.

As a former teacher, I must admit I haven't had good experiences with SS - far from rushing in and taking kids into care they always seemed so laissez faire as to be almost comatose. So I wouldn't worry on that score. It won't happen.

[Weathergames]

You can report anything you want to social care.

They are trained professionals, they can distinguish the chaff from the wheat.

Any tiny concern should always be reported. It's a tiny piece of a jigsaw and you don't know who else has reported things.

[kungpopanda]

Any tiny concern should always be reported? Really?
How about people minding their own goddamn business?

[Atenco]

I was just wondering, has no-one thought to talk to the children's dad?

[Senpai]

Honestly...

I'd report it to leave a paper trail in case the situation gets worse so that it will be easier to intervene, but I wouldn't honestly expect much to be done at this particular moment.

Unfortunately SS is a very slow moving machine, slipping grades and questionable lifestyles aren't really enough for SS to get involved. But if you let them know there's a problem, it can put them on the map if a teacher makes a complaint and give them a better picture of what's going on. So for that reason alone, I'd do it.

In the mean time, I know you're enabling the mother, but if there is abuse going on at home, taking the kids in when you get the chance is the best thing you can do. Letting them suffer for the sake of not enabling the mother won't make the mother less selfish, it'll just leave the kids high and dry. Not to guilt trip you, but if the mother is already putting them in questionable situations, you not taking them just means she'll drag them even where they shouldn't necessarily be because she's not going to put them first from the sounds of it.

[Dolly80]

HomeJames how likely is it that your family member would work with professionals? I only ask as it sounds like early intervention/family support might be helpful (think a PP also mentioned it) However, she couldn't be forced to do this, it would be her choice.

In some places you can self refer however most get their cases from children's services. It might be worth contacting your local department for advice (a large number of contacts to children's services do not progress to assessments by social workers but do help signpost families to other people that can help them)

[IguanaTail]

You need to flag it up. It sounds neglectful behaviour and while it might not mean immediate action it allows a picture to be formed. The school could well be struggling to manage the attendance / punctuality side of things in any case and have already assigned someone to try and help from that point of view.

[BoxofSnails]

If you are going to inform Children's Services of your concerns, I think it's really important you tell her, and the reasons why. I have had significant involvement as a parent and my social worker told me it is very unusual for family to report and generally comes after a long period of familial input and help and crisis management. As such it carries great weight. My family members made CS their first port of call when I confided that I was struggling and assumptions were made that were not true. To leave a family member to guess where concerns have come from is really unhelpful in the 'us vs them' feeling that you tend to be tempted to fall into and which stops many people from working with Children's services once the referral has been made.

[DiamondAge]

Rather than listening to other parents opinions of whether or not your concerns are worthy of reporting you could read the following leaflet by the NSPCC which outlines what constitutes emotional abuse and neglect for 5 - 14 year olds (they also have a leaflet for pre-schoolers & teens). And yes, school performance can be one of the indicators when taken as part of the whole picture.

www.nspcc.org.uk/services-and-resources/research-and-resources/neglect-emotional-abuse-core-info/?_t_id=1B2M2Y8AsgTpgAmY7PhCfg%3d%3d&_t_q=%22core+info%22&_t_tags=language%3aen%2csiteid%3a7f1b9313-bf5e-4415-abf6-aaf87298c667&_t_ip=185.69.144.31&_t_hit.id=Nspcc_Web_Models_Pages_ResearchReportsPage/_76f878b0-4e13-4fc3-9e15-d791fda636f9_en-GB&_t_hit.pos=7

HTH and best wishes for what must be a very tough decision.

[Taytocrisps]

I would be concerned too OP. There's nothing wrong with a single parent dating other people or forming relationships but two of the men in question have moved in after a very short time which must be a bit unsettling for the kids. One of the men was a drug user and the relationship involved a lot of screaming and rowing - not very pleasant for the kids to witness.

Being late for school constantly and not doing their homework is likely to impact on their education. If the kids are staying up late, they're likely to be tired at school the next day and have poor concentration.

You said that the house is filthy and smells. Do you think the mother is washing the childrens' clothes? How are the kids faring out in terms of food? Is the mother making lunches for her kids or do they get school meals?

I don't imagine that social services will rush in and put the children into foster care, but the picture you've painted suggests a very poor quality of life for the children. They deserve better. For that reason, I would report it. If social services choose not to act on that information, so be it.