DP and I can't agree on whether DC should be vegetarians or omnivores.

[MyNewBearTotoro]

I am vegetarian and have been for 10+ years. For me it is an ethical decision. DP is an omnivore, he eats a mostly vegetarian diet at home as we eat together but he cooks/ buys himself meat a few times a week. That's fine, I don't expect anybody else to follow my ideals or think my decision is the only or 'correct' one.

We have two DC. 2yo DD is from my previous relationship (her biological father has no contact and DP is to all extents and purposes Daddy) and is vegetarian as she was weaned by me before DP took on a parenting role. DS is 4mo so not yet weaned but will be in a couple of months which is what prompted the conversation. DD is healthy and I have done a lot of research into providing a balanced, healthy vegetarian diet to toddlers as I never considered any other diet for her.

Both DP and I agree that once they are old enough to do so our DC should be free to make their own decisions regarding whether they want to eat meat or not. The problem is we have a different idea of what the 'default' should be until then.

I feel the DC should be fed a meat-free diet until/unless they start showing an interest in eating meat. DP thinks they should be given meat when he eats it until they start questioning why I don't eat it and then we should let them make a decision.

I guess I feel like I don't want to feed my DC a product I see as unethical without their consent. But I can see that to my DP, who feel eating meat is ethical and 'normal,' it seems like I am pushing my own morals on them. I guess the problem is I see eating meat as the abnormal and he sees not eating it as the abnormal - both of us want our children to eat a normal, healthy diet but we disagree as to what that means.

Is one of us being unreasonable? Is there an obvious compromise or will one of us have to back down? And is it obvious from the outside which of us should back down because we seem to have reached a stalemate.

[MyNewBearTotoro]

I can't say I've ever tried venison/ pheasant so no idea what they taste like although no wild deer round here. I guess if they're unlikely to be pleasant to DC though that may work into favour of the DC are likely to refuse them on taste! Definitely won't be offering up fish fingers or chicken though as DP doesn't ever really eat either and we never cook special meals for DD, she just eats what we're eating. When he has meat DP mostly eats pork (belly/ribs, not really processed sausages/ bacon etc), lamb and shellfish so I guess that's what would be on offer to DC in future (if he doesn't make the move to hunting/ fishing). I wouldn't feel happy buying additional meat especially for the children I don't think.

[LemonBreeland]

I've only just come across this thread, but I just wanted to say I think it is lovely that you and your DH can have a calm ratioanl discussion about the issue and see each others point of view. So often that is not the case these days.

[Bimblywibble]

But on a practical level, pheasant and venison have a much stronger, gamier flavour than more commercially available meat. Your DH can do as he likes with his own food, but I think the leap from lifelong vegetarian diet to venison is a much bigger leap than veggie to fishfingers or chicken.

[Bimblywibble]

Or I think, even. Thunk!

[Bimblywibble]

I thunk that's a good outcome Totoro. It was never going to go all your way and it is good he has acknowledged and accepted that your feelings are probably stronger than his on this.

I wouldn't worry too much about labelling children either. A lot of the current population of atheists probably grew up labelled christian. As children of both a veggie and a meat eater, they will be well equipped to make their own decision when they are ready.

[Pranmasghost]

My dd is vegetarian and her husband is not. The two boys are omnivorous. The natural thing for humans is to eat meat and vegetarianism is an option when they are older. It is easier for dd to accept because her preferences are to do with the taste/texture of meat rather than an ethical stance.

[lieselvontwat]

Glad you could come to a positive solution for the family.

[gleam]

That's lovely to hear, Totoro.

[MyNewBearTotoro]

Hi everyone. We got the chance to sit down and talk tonight. We realised we'd never really talked in depth about the fact he eats meat and I don't before.

I explained my reasons for feeling uncomfortable with giving the DC meat and explained my reasons for being vegetarian in the first place. DP also expressed his own views and he confessed he would be interested in fishing/hunting for food (he is part of a local foraging group and apparently some of them also fish and hunt wild rabbit/ pheasant etc) but had never told me or pursued the idea as he thought I'd disapprove. Actually I prefer the idea of wild fish/ meat as my biggest concern with meat is with the welfare conditions of animals over the 'meat is murder' side. DP said he agrees with many of my animal welfare concerns and he seems excited at the idea of moving towards only eating meat he's caught now I've given him the go ahead. Don't know if it will actually happen but we'll see...

Anyway in terms of the DC it seemed that as as a result of this thread I came to the conversation more willing to compromise this time (thanks everyone) and as a result DP was also more ready to listen. I explained my particular aversion to giving a baby meat, I don't think he gets it at all but he understood it was something I have strong feelings about and he admitted his feelings aren't so strong, he was more annoyed at my assumption the kids would be veggie when it came up earlier this week and admitted he felt compelled to challenge my assumption.

Anyway, we agreed we will wean DS on a veggie diet initially and keep DD on her vegetarian diet too. But we won't say the DC are vegetarian but rather that they haven't tried meat yet - DP felt it important we don't label them as he felt that might influence their future choices and I agree it's not our place to label them either way.

Beyond that it will be a discussion for another day as we both think DD is too young to make a choice yet but realise in a few more months she may begin to ask questions about Daddy's different food and at some point DS will do the same. I think as the DC get older DP will feel more strongly the children should at least be offered meat choices so we do need another conversation at some point about how we will handle that and what we both think is a reasonable explanation regarding what meat is/ where it comes from and then what constitutes the DC making a choice to eat it (eg: how old/ informed should they be?).

So I guess the situation hasn't been resolved in the long-term and I am sure we won't fully agree when we discuss it next but at least we have a short-term plan.

[Iggi999]

I'm not sure - I am certainly not a vegan but my diet is mostly vegan as I live with and cook for one of them, but will be vegetarian when eating out or just cooking for myself. That doesn't mean I am mostly vegan as I agree you either are or your aren't, but my meals are mostly vegan, that bit is factual.

[ObiWanCannoli]

I never described myself as vegan, if I eat out I ask for gluten free and vegan dishes as it lowers the risk of the food containing things I can't eat.

I think describing the food I cook as mostly vegan is accurate as the dishes contain no animal products. So saying my diet contains food that is mostly vegan is accurate.

I've never said I'm a vegan, I dislike labelling myself. I dislike restricting my diet any more than it already is. I don't mind classing my food as vegan, vegetarian or fish based as that's how it's classed in cookery books.

If I've eaten 30 days worth of food that contains no animal product and than eaten a sandwich with gluten free bread that contains egg or had one dish which contained sardines. That month has been mainly vegan. I wouldn't say I'm vegan. I could say my diet is mainly plant based if you wish but that bugs people too.

[SuburbanRhonda]

No, it really isn't "mostly vegan" because there's no such thing. You either are vegan - and eat no animal
products at all - or you're not vegan and eat animal products.

How often you choose to eat animal
products makes no difference to the fact that your diet is that of an omnivore, not a vegan of any description.

[Bimblywibble]

Any update yet OP? I really hope you can talk him round.

[whois]

I think since DH eats meat and wants the children to eat meat, then it would make sense that when he cooks he can cook them meat. When they are old enough to make a decision as to continuing to eat meat they can do. OP doesn't have to cook them meat.

[Alisvolatpropiis]

To be fair to Obi she didn't describe herself as a strict, hardcore vegan, just that she mostly ate a mostly vegan diet.

For ease of description, I'd say that was vegan, in her shoes, too.

It's not like me, having two meat free days a week, describing myself as "mostly vegetarian". Now that would be stretching the boundaries of credibility!

[ObiWanCannoli]

Well I think eating fish maybe at most twice a month (we eat it on Friday as it ties in with my upbringing) and eggs once a month for myself is eating a diet which is almost vegan. 28 days of eating vegan and the children having around the same as vegetarian is pretty close to eschewing all meat.

I think as a family we do a good job of not supporting industries which promote harm to animals.

Sardines are high in vitamin B12 and for me I'm worried about the lack of this in mine and my children's diet, the only meat I would buy is sardines and less often mackerel.

When my children are older, my eldest is only 8 they can decide to remove fish and dairy. Until that point I can't be certain I can get them enough B12 and that is my only concern.

[KatharineClifton]

I don't think you are overthinking it at all. I'm vegy for ethical reasons, bloody loved eating the stuff back in the day! I brought up my DC as pescatarian, I wasn't confident enough with the seeds and oils etc, but I damn well knew that nobody needs meat. Not gonna serve them meat ever. They are 13 now and have actively chosen from when they could understand it all to not eat meat, including gelatine. I see it as I have given them a choice from the beginning. I've not forced meat on them and now it's up to them.

Big snigger at a pp's suggestion above that meat is a food group. Haha.

[SuburbanRhonda]

At home we eat a mostly vegan diet with sardines or mackerel occasionally on a Friday or more rarely a fish and chips as a treat. Sometimes we have an egg curry or omelette type dish. I eat eggs in bread and pastry as a gluten free diet is hard enough without adding extra exclusions. The kids drink milk and eat cheese, I'm also happy to let the kids eat of meat at parties and out of the house.

On what planet this could possibly be described as a "mostly vegan diet"?

[DreamingOfThruxtons]

Haven't read whole thread yet, but in our house (I am vegetarian, partner eats meat), my daughter is having a vegetarian diet until she is 7, and old enough to demonstrate that she understands what she is agreeing to if she does eat meat. I would still never cook meals with it though.

Having said that, at parties etc she does sometimes eat things that contain gelatine- I will point out, non-emotively, that 'they have piggy feet in them'. Sometimes she puts them down in favour of something else, sometimes not. I'm not going to have battles with her over that sort of thing, as I think it will end up becoming too much of an issue and will backfire.

I figure it us up to me, as a parent, to make decisions for my child in other aspects of her life, based on moral standpoints and what I deem to be in her best interests. Why should her diet be an exception?

[claraschu]

Sorry to keep bombarding you with messages ExAstis I just think you raise some interesting points...

[claraschu]

ExAstris I understand that your point is about a biological norm. I was just saying that we are so far from the biological norm in so many ways, that I don't really think being vegetarian is a very extreme one.

The other things we choose to feed our kids seem much farther from what we were intended to eat, biologically speaking. My vegan and vegetarian friends who eat a huge variety of vegetables, (lots of it local, seasonal and organic) and who eat very little processed food, seem closer to what nature designed us for than people eating a SAD (Standard American Diet) for instance.

[claraschu]

ExAstris you are right that some meat is ethically sourced, but what percentage of the animals people eat would pass the cortisol test? And even more important than how animals are killed (which doesn't take a very long time) is the conditions under which they live.

I am a vegetarian who picks up roadkill for my meat eating neighbours, so not squeamish, but the conditions under which most animals live who are raised for meat is horrific. Of course there are exceptions, like my roadkill and your venison, but this is a tiny percentage of all the meat eaten in the world.

[CultureSucksDownWords]

The rhetoric and Facebook crap is nothing to do with this, although I would suggest some prudent unfollowing of those friends of yours that do it!

Of course animals should be treated properly when alive, but let's not pretend that shooting/slaughtering them is kind. Either you have a problem with killing animals or you don't, I suppose that's quite a fundamental part of your ethics that is unlikely to be affected by an online debate.

Eating vegetarian is a very straightforward way of reducing the number of animals killed for your pleasure. If you don't want to kill animals then being vegetarian is a no-brainer.

[TheCreepyContessaOfPlumperton]

Sorry, haven't read the thread.

I'm vegan (happened last year) and DH is an omnivore. The kids get fed meat/dairy/eggs if he prepares it, otherwise they don't. I am of the mind that they can stop eating it once they are old enough to decide for themselves. I've explained to them my reasons and they seem fairly accepting that I don't eat meat or drink milk but that daddy does.

I'm not sure what would happen if DH and I split up tbh - they'd probably become veggie at home as I dislike the thought of preparing meat

[lieselvontwat]

I agree it's perfectly understandable for a veggie not to want to feed meat to their child avocado, although the idea that vegetarianism is so much more likely to be rooted in an ethical approach is a bit of a stretch. Rather, it stems from different ethical views, because meat eaters have often thought about the issue and simply consider eating meat to be ethically acceptable.

But I don't think OP is BU to feel as she does about giving meat, I'm not a veggie but I think if you have a particular viewpoint about animals it's perfectly logical not to want to eat them or be involved in anyone else doing so. There's a bit more to this issue, though: OP wasn't just asking if she was unreasonable not to want to give meat to her child/ren, but also for advice on what to do going forward. Whether they should be able to eat meat at all, whether just the youngest should, when and who should be responsible for cooking any meat they do eat etc. I can see why several vegetarian posters want to turn this into a purely ethical discussion (although the 'just because meat is normal doesn't mean it's right' line isn't exactly a useful contribution) but the thing is, OP and DP already have different ethical standpoints on meat and don't seem likely to agree on the issue. So there can be huffing and puffing, but it's not clear how that would get them anywhere.