To just not get sencos

[Shaddawadsa]

I'm training as a mh professional and part of my job is to go into schools to talk about how to meet additonal needs, specifically behavior/ emotional development. I have meetings with sencos who are also head teachers, deputy heads, class teachers, most of whom don't seem to have senco training and aren't given the time needed to do the job. Could someone explain what is going on? I just don't get how it is an effective way of supporting the children with real needs. Aibu?

I think the reason primary senco can struggle is this.
Up until quite recently children with anything about basic learning difficulties were in special schools. In our area there were brilliant schools from mild to severe needs.
Now 'normal' schools have more children with additional needs because many of the schools for children with less severe needs have closed over last ten years.

So the one form entry primary of thirty a year and less than 210 in the whole school might not have had experience with children with certain needs. DDS school had no experience of selective mutism and thought dyspraxia only effected clumsiness. They had limited Autism experience and had never had a child with Downs syndrome etc. The old training was pitiful. (I have worked in schools).

DDS secondary takes 175 children per YEAR 7. That's a massive amount more children. I have found that secondary staff have much more actual experience. The new ones might not but then they have had the new training. In dds small group there are children who have dyslexia, dyspraxia , autism, physical disabilities, global delay, adhd etc.

Its experience and decent training.

*anything above basic needs that should say.

I didn't realise SENCOs were often class teachers too. I can't imagine how they get everything done!

Our SENCO is just the SENCO. And she heads up the team of learning support teachers. All of whom just teach one on one learning support.

We're a private school though which might explain the difference. Though I often hear that mainstream state is better than mainstream independent for SN/SEN, though special independent is the best of the lot. Don't know how true that is though.

From experience most secondary senco are just senco , primary tend to teach also.

Actually, I don't think it is 'well said' Foxy
In fact, the message I get from your post is that parents should put up and shut up.
I actually don't care what the constraints are that you have to face - my job is to advocate for my child to make sure that his needs are identified and met.
I was always more than willing to work with my son's primary school. I was desperate to. But unfortunately, the SENCo was so useless that it felt like she had retired and forgotten to tell anyone. And the subsequent one was pretty dire as well.
My son eventually ended up receiving specialist support in a residential setting. But left to his mainstream school and SENCos - well, he would have been alright wouldn't he because 'it's you mum, he's alright when he's here'.

I've had two Senco's in primary, the first one was brilliant - knew her stuff and anything she didn't, declared she didn't and would research.

Second Senco, same school same and hours as the other. Absolutely fucking dire. It's a dedicated role and I don't expect to spend all her time with ds, actually she doesn't need to see him at all. He has an EHCP he's well supported. However his class teachers come to me to ask for learning strategies because the expert in the school is fucking useless, I'm not sure she even knows what disability is. Most times I meet with her I ususlly sit open mouthed, aghast at the notice she spouts out.

If only I could have kept that first Senco, she truly is amazing and I was always grateful for the effort. When DS moved to middle school, I wrote a letter to the head about her to be placed on her employment record. The head got very different letters from me about the second one.

I'm a senco in a state primary with 200 pupils. I have 1 day a week for my senco role and am teaching on my other days. I work extremely hard although I know I could fill 5 days a week with my senco responsibilities alone.

Wow, you are dead supportive aren't you? I get 2 hours a week release time to be the inclusion manager. I'm guessing you aren't doing another full time job on top of your role supporting SEN children.

Its disgraceful notawhale
I know it is not your fault but it makes me cross because it is children like mine who have slipped through the gap and were at the point of breakdown because the senco at primary didn't have time to deal with her because she wasn't the kid throwing chairs and spitting at the teachers.

Needmorespace Foxy's post was not referring to parents at al. She is talking about the frustration about having specialists coming in and giving unrealistic advice to SENCOs and teachers. The staff in my school are all dedicated to doing their best for all the children but we are restrained by staffing, time and space. Some specialists just don't get that when they come to advise us.

I actually agree with that Lauren15 and I say that with a dire Senco.

At my DS school the actual LSA's and class teachers are fantastic and their frustration with the Senco is almost palpable.
I have also seen many professionals come in to advise the school on different strategies. Strategies ususlly based on theory rather than fact, or advise that is ambigous and non-specific, which is simply inadequate for the school and ds.
When I see this (EP's are very fond of ambigous statements in my experience). I push back to the professional and ask for clarification, state what would be unworkable for Ds and his environment and ask how the strategy can be adapted and measured effectively.

My Senco sits back mutters nonsense from time to time and nodding her head like the Churchill dog, when I'm in fact challenging something she should be challenging. It's not in my interest or ds interest for the school not to have proper directives and clear guidance. All too often these things are absent.
Op have a look at your advice - is it targeted? Can it be provided in a busy school environment? What can be adapted? What specific issues are the school dealing with? Generic advice is as good as a slap on a sunburnt face.

I really appreciate all your responses. I totally take in board my need to understand better the constraints and realities of a busy mainstream setting. Equally, this can be difficult as if you have not personally worked in a school, which is not a requirement for my role, then the processes in place can seem quite mysterious. I only felt able to ask about them on mn! I want to be the best support I can be for schools, children and families- sometimes though, I feel like I'm being brought in as a tick box exercise to evidence applications for extra funding, or a move to a specialist placement. Most basic suggestions are not followed, such as a quiet space for an overwhelmed child with sensory needs acting out undesirable behaviors as a consequence. I appreciate that schools have limited resources and space but if they are accepting children with additional needs, who have funding packages attached, then recommendations from professionals such as this should be followed, as its one of the make or break changes to the environment which is the difference between a child who can manage, and a child who can't cope.

So of course not the sencos fault but certainly a big problem that should be address by funding decisions.

Also , how do I know what level of qualifications or time a senco has? Should I ask directly? I worry it would be seen as a criticism

I think they vary massively. At Dds primary they were great by all accounts, and nobody had anything bad to say about them. To the point that sometimes with formerly undiagnosed milder Sen it was the senco and school noticing initially it wasn't just an ability/ behavior thing.

In contrast I know someone through a social thing who thinks a lot of so called sn/ Sen is just an excuse for bad behaviour/ parenting/ parents not accepting low achievement. After all her dc get a bit hyper sometimes, but can behave therefore adhd is over diagnosed. And her niece isn't strong socially but had to learn to get along, so while 'proper' autism exists, a lot of 'so called' asd is down to pandering. Likewise learning disabilities exist, but apparently lots of parents go chasing dx for things to provide excuses for their child not being top set. Quite frighteningly she is a senco at a primary in a deprived area with high eal where many parents won't be able to fight her or confident enough to move schools.

This rings bells for me with some discussions I have had recently!

I think Shaddawadsa raises a valid point about schools that will accept dc with sen, and the funding that goes with them and then not accept the recommendations from CAMHS and other professionals. Nodding away at meetings often followed by excluding the child. The really good Sencos are the one's that will admit that a school can't provide the right environments for dc in some situations. Many schools prefer to follow the exclusion route in these cases - explained by blaming the dc and of course the parents - with little thought given to the effects on either the dc or their families. I've known good Sencos be overruled by bad HTs as well as completely crap Sencos.

And just as Lurked describes, too many people involved in education hold the views of the latter Senco she describes. The only people that thought/think I was/am a bad parent and that my ds didn't/doesn't have ASD have been involved in education and not qualified to dx anything except dyslexia.

I was a class teacher for 27 years 15 of those years as SENCo. Depending on funding I got a couple of hours for SENCo role, a day a week for SENCo role, a morning for SENCO role. Every September it changed. I absolutely loved the SENCo part of my job, but fitting it round all the other responsibilities (and subject co-ordinator roles as it was a small school) meant I was constantly overloaded.
My successor (who has done all the training and more) just isn't 'into' SEN. Staff say she lacks empathy with the the children and just doesn't seem bothered about them.
During my time as SENCo I met lots of lovely people from other schools and although training is important, what is really vital is a concern for the children the SENCo is helping and a willingness to seek advice and to find out about different conditions and disabilities. However much training there is a SENCo cannot be an expert on every condition.

I don't think people are particularly criticising the teachers who are forced to do this as well as a full time teaching role. BUT people are criticising the system. And the shrinking resources.

This is why I tend to favour bigger schools, they have more chance of squeezing money for someone to concentrate on the role.

In my experience: Secondary SENCO is absolutely fabulous, but is a real rarity: works extremely hard, cares about the students, knows her stuff and has a fabulous support team who get the admin done.
In other schools they've gone from okay at the admin, and go through the motions to pretty good and understand what they are doing.

In Primary we had a SENCO who was full time, good at the paper work etc., but admitted she didn't know that much about the different SENs, she had specialist staff for that - possibly why they could be okay with mild dyslexia but not so good at educating those with ASD (and some things didn't get spotted).

However I do find this a bit worrying: "The staff in my school are all dedicated to doing their best for all the children but we are restrained by staffing, time and space. Some specialists just don't get that when they come to advise us." For the same reason as the OP - sometimes things are requested by parents and every "specialist" but are not created, such as a "chill out place". Of course if they are forced to create them, schools will then show them off as an added feature and a sign of the creative problem solving - I know a school which has done exactly this.

LarrytheCucumber - you sound like you were a good SENCO (as much as you could be) - and lots of people are desperate to find ones like you - who will listen to others and ask advice.

Thanks all. Interesting debate. The question I have, is if school writes off behaviour issues as problem child stuff, senco either too busy/ not trained, instead of putting referrals in place to investigate underlying difficulties with social communication or language for example, and parents are unable for what ever reason - usually social disadvantage- what on earth happens? What can I do? Anything? Short of offering myself for free to observe every child presenting unexpected/ undesirable behaviors?

Definitely agree on the funding issue. Child I know went round 3 secondaries incase they didn't get the vital and much needed move from mainstream for y7. First said they'd try their best but they strongly believed mainstream wasn't remotely suitable, and if child did end up there they'd offer loads, but as it still wouldn't be enough they'd back up parents for a transfer out. Second said we provide x,y,z, see how it goes (clueless rather than bad). The third apparently were rubbing their hands in glee at the finance that goes with this child.

Third school loves statements. Provided it's a child who'll contribute to a league table whilst contributing to the Sen %. Thus school can imply any pass is down to their excellent academy. Or one that comes with what appears to be viewed as a donation to the school funds.

Shaddawadda in answer to your question about what can you do - in the early days our (ds and me) negotiations through the sen "jungle" and NHS referral process (very lengthy) without a doubt the two people from CAMHS were extremely supportive and the only people who were at the time. They came to our home quite a bit too and found that my child wasn't experiencing the bad home environment that had been described to them by the school. So, to answer your question, be as supportive and helpful to the child and family as you can, and to do so irrespective of what the school chooses, or is able, to do.

My DC's SEN became apparent when he started primary school (20 years ago), the teacher, SENCO and LEA were hopeless, refusing to assess, under playing the problems and blaming us. We fought and argued for years to get appropriate support, and had to have endless private reports and diagnoses to get to the cause of the problems. It was a nightmare for the family and affected DC badly. I discovered Mumsnet recently and have been reading the posts about dementia and looking after elderly relatives as I have been caring for my elderly mother. Out of interest I looked at the SEN threads and am so disappointed to find that for some families the problems we experienced still exist. The teachers and SENCOs we met with just did not understand Dyspraxia (I had had to follow a steep learning curve myself having had no experience of it before)and I had hoped that over the years things would have improved but it appears not.

at my childrens primary school there has always been a dedicated senco, who has been BRILLIANT. All 3 of my children have SEN and I have no idea how chldren manage when there isnt a dedicated senco, unless i guess they effectively just exclude any problem children or constructive dismissal, which i think probably a lot of schools do

The funding that comes from a child with a statement has to be spent on that child. It really makes no difference to the rest of the school. If we are short of a TA because of absence, our head does not allow us to use a 1:1 assistant for general duties because she is there for the benefit of the statemented child.

Our senco is appalling. I have a thread in SN chat about it at the moment.

She has no understanding of ASD at all, she has told 2 other parents their children can't possibly have ASD, even though they are diagnosed. She takes hours off children (who have hours agreed on an IEP) and shares them around.

She is refusing to put my ASD diagnosed child on the SEN register as she doesn't see her autism .

Numerous parents have complained about her, in fact a vast number have and I only know one parent who is happy with her, and that parent has a child with uncontrollable ADHD who is disrupting all lessons and who is running rings around them. So therefore only supporting those who have visible behavioural problems. And actually saying that, the senco has taken the full time hours away from this child now and no one knows why (thankfully her EHCP has been finalised so she can't play anymore games).

I'm sure there are lovely sencos out there, but this one just isn't one of them.