to be in tears about HMRC?

[commuterville]

Long story short, last year I received a penalty letter. I was really worried, called up about it, spoke to a couple of people who reassured me, said I didn't owe anything and told me what I needed to do re self assessment (have been put onto that due to being a higher rate taxpayer and in receipt of CB). So 2 people telling me I didn't owe anything was good enough for me. Self assessment filed, all ok. Apparently.

Now I've had correspondence saying I owe a 4 figure sum. I spent an hour on the phone, most of it on hold, to query it only to be told I have to appeal, which will take up to 4 months and I'll be charged interest in the meantime as well.

I'm lucky (haha) in that I can pay it but it will completely wipe out money I'd put aside for my DC and a holiday. Have been crying in the loos about it. This is just the latest shitty thing to happen this year - never ending list of jobs to do in my house, teen DC being 'challenging', my bf got diagnosed with cancer (but is clear for now thankfully), my job is a nightmare and I've recently found out I'm being paid £10k or more less than my workshy colleague (who works from home all the time, which I'm not allowed to). Frankly this feels like the last straw.

[commuterville]

I filed online. They are showing as filed.

There are charges, plus further penalties for not paying the penalties. Plus interest. It's the interest thats accruing daily now.

[Smoolett]

They work out the penalty when return is filed. Eg. 45 days after 3 months trigger date isa £450 penalty. Interest accrues but no further penalty when return received.

[KleineDracheKokosnuss]

Speaking from a (yearly) history of complaints to HMRC, you need to:

1. Send a detailed letter, setting out:
   

a) to whom you spoke, when, and what was said,
b) that you are hereby making an official complaint,
c) that you expect a full written response within 10 working days (won't happen but then you can complain about that too),
d) that based on the statements made by their own staff, you have a legitimate expectation that you did not have to pay anything, and that you have relied on those statements (use the words "legitimate expectation"),
e) that you require disclosure of your full file, including any notes made of telephone calls and recordings of those calls, plus a written explanation as to precisely how they have reached the conclusion that you owe them money,
f) that by their actions they have caused you distress,
g) that you expect a named person to deal with your complaint; and
h) that all correspondence is to be in writing from now on, as they clearly are incapable of properly recording what they tell people on the telephone.

Then send the letter recorded, keep records of everything, and every time they revert with a letter that makes no sense and does not contain the above referenced detailed letter, you make a further complaint about their inability to properly deal with your case, and you pick holes in every last thing that they said.

The end result for us has always been the same - it gets passed round departments, and eventually they just write off any supposed debt because they are incapable of working out how to do sums on their own systems. Either that or the amount of time they have to spend dealing with your letters becomes uneconomical. I really hate them.

[Gabilan]

What KleineDrache said. You can actually be quite firm with HMRC. Not arsey, obviously, but firm. Things like "I am no longer contacting you by phone as I need to keep an audit trail of my contact with you". If you do contact them by phone, send them a written summary. "Audit trail" seems to have a good effect on them and flags up that A. you know what one is and B. are probably prepared to use it against them. The words "you are stressing me" (in my case backed up by "I have clinical depression, this is worsening the symptoms", which I can prove) are also good. Ditto "if X happens I will bring a formal complaint".

IME, being inept works in their favour because they can pass your debt onto a collection agency then blame you for this, despite repeated attempts to contact them and sort the debt out.

So to reiterate what PP have said - keep an evidence trail of your contact with them. It sounds like you've been having a very hard time of it in other ways too and being stressed is quite understandable. Yes, it's good that you can pay it if you have too, but it's still understandable that you're stressed.

[Becauseicannes]

Dealing with them is very stressful. I am still waiting for a refund. I have had no response to my appeal.

[Nettletheelf]

Yes, keep an audit trail and if all else fails, involve your MP.

HMRC tend to employ quite a few people, particularly in customer-facing roles, who are jobsworths and/or not very bright and who actively avoid thinking about anything difficult. Their systems are also quite ropy at times. Remember this when you're getting frustrated with them: not to be sympathetic to them when you're suffering, but to remind yourself that you're the sane, smart person and that the person you're speaking to (1) may not be capable of thinking clearly and (2) cares about little other than following a list of instructions and staying out of trouble.

[Kewcumber]

I was told by the advisor that they send the letters to scare people and it's only persistent offenders they fine anything more than £100

This is so ridiculously untrue I am horrified that any advisor would say it.

There are automatic penalties for not filing which have increased dramatically in the past few years. It isn't anything to do with jobsworths on the phone or you (or your advisor) think is fair - it an automated fine, not at the whim of whomever you speak to. The only way to get rid of it is to appeal it. It can quite easily get into the £'ooos if you are 6 months late

It used to be that they couldn't charge you more in penalties than the tax you owed but this is no longer true.

You can appeal for a few reasons - fire death etc www.gov.uk/tax-appeals/reasonable-excuses. Write all teh letters you like but only an appeal will potentially reduce your liability.

If you agree to pay the outstanding penalty and interest (the longest period they will agree easily is over 6 months) then the interest is likely to be minimal - they don't charge a ridiculously high rate of interest (from memory).

This is a good summary of how and on what grounds to appeal www.rossmartin.co.uk/penalties-a-compliance/penalties-appeals/890-how-to-appeal-a-tax-penalty

[commuterville]

It might seem ridiculous, but that was honestly what I was told. I'm not making it up! I've never had any dealings with HMRC so just accepted what advice I was given. I was in a massive panic when I got the first letter, being told I had nothing to worry about was a huge weight off. Shame it wasn't actually true.

I will be appealing.

I can pay fine in full, I just object to doing so given what I was told. It's a lot of money to find.

[Elmersnewfriend]

I agree it was terrible (and incorrect) advice!

Why did you file late, incidentally? That is what you need to focus on in the appeal.

[commuterville]

Basically a breakdown in communication.

I spoke to someone in 2013 to ask about self assessment. They said if I needed to file a return I'd be contacted. I never received anything further until late 2014, when I contacted them immediately I got that letter, and had the conversation referred to.

So yes, I'm probably stupid for not having chased it sooner. And for relying on what I was told which was apparently bullshit (even though 2 people told me the same thing on different days in different calls).

I've also found out that contrary to what I was told today, HMRC don't record any calls. I made a point of asking that today, twice. I was clearly told they did, but seems that's more lies.

I rather suspect an appeal won't get anywhere, especially if they don't record calls.

[Pestolavista]

HMRC do record calls to the main Self Assessment helpline and I think the main debt management centre. Not the smaller compliance centres though.

[Elmersnewfriend]

Ok, I would focus on that for your appeal. You were told there was no need for you to file unless contacted. You were never contacted. Therefore the normal 31 January date wouldn't apply and you'd have 3 months from being notified.

They are very frustrating to deal with to say the least good luck.

[Kewcumber]

I agree with Elmer you need to focus on the advice you were given by HMRC on the phone that a SA return would not be necessary. Hopefully you have made a note of the date of the call.

[Gabilan]

I've worked in an environment that records calls. Date and time is good but also if you made a record of the number you called from, you can often search a system on that. Of course, unless they're really interested in training staff who are giving out incorrect information they might not want to find it, but if they used a similar to ours, they should be able to!

[ShakesBootyFlabWobbles]

I've prepared lots of appeals to HMRC - not the same department your are dealing with - and it is not a foregone conclusion they will fail. However, if you don't appeal, HMRC are not going to just wipe off the penalties either.

As people have said, the late return penalties are automatically generated by software, not thought about by humans. You have reasons for an appeal, so have a go.

[Allstoppedup]

Legally you can submit a subject access request under the Data Protection Act which will give you all of the notes/details they have on file for you. This would generally include any notes a handler would have left on their systems after speaking to you. Sometimes there will be a charge for this (about £10) but it will show a summary of any conversation as documented by a call handler. Every customer advisory role I've had has included leaving call notes as a basic requirement for quality control and I would think that HMRC would have the same. They have confirmed they HAVE information on their system, doing this would allow you to view it all.

If you Google Subject Access Request you will find more information. It's worth looking at to back up your side of the story/to establish whether you have an argument against them.

Good luck.

[Gabilan]

Or look through your own phone bill for the massively long call where you were on hold for effing ages. And their hold music could almost have been deliberately composed to make you want to put the phone down/ scratch your own ear off.

[GinandJag]

You either owe it or you don't. Are we supposed to sympathise if you do owe?

Chances are you can have it incorporated into your new tax code.

[Kewcumber]

Thats a peculiar post GinandJag anyone is entitled to appeal a penalty ruling, it isn't as simple as "you either owe it or you don't"

[sleepsoftly]

Google Tax Aid uk
Staffed by uk tax professionals on a voluntary basis who know exactly what to do. There to help in this type of situation.

[Supersoft]

I'm sure you can phone up the repayments line and agree to pay £5 a month or whatever. To be honest I don't have much sympathy if by paying the money back it means no holiday. This benefit shouldn't be used to afford such luxuries, it should be helpful to those who need it to pay basic bills.

[littlefrenchonion]

I had this - bill for around £1000 arrived the week before my wedding. I cried my eyes out.

In the end I sent a long letter detailing why I shouldn't have to pay (HMRC advisor had told me a year ago over telephone that I had closed my 'account' with them and didn't need to take any further action. I hadn't, she just cancelled my NI). They revoked all but £100.

Don't bother phoning them, write. Take copies of everything so you can refer back if needed.

Good luck.

[commuterville]

Thanks for all the advice. I've not slept all night that's how worried and upset it's made me.

To the posters having a pop, yes maybe I do owe it. But a) I was very clearly told over 6 months ago I owed nothing and relying on that I didn't pay anything. Also b) how is it fair to fine someone a 4 figure sum, when I didn't even owe any tax?

As for the I dont need the money, hafuckingha. Like I said, in the year in question I didn't owe any tax, in fact I'd overpaid. I'm a single parent and haven't had a holiday since 2011. So I was quite looking forward to one, not spending all that money on HMRC penalties and interest.

[Marynary]

I don't owe a penny in tax. In fact in 12/13 I got a rebate. Which they've kindly deducted from what I owe

I thought that if you didn't owe any tax then you don't receive a fine even if your tax return is late.

[MissBattleaxe]

No, even if its a nil return you can get fined for filing it late.