police who ignored a 17 y/o girl with mental health problems when she reported a rape should not have been given the option to retire on their pensions

[agentEgypt]

This is the story about Hampshire police who ignored this 17 year old girl when she tried to report a rape, and instead said they would charge her for perverting the course of justice and this made her self harm more and attempt suicide.

However she did get legal help and eventually they settled out of court. However 4 of the cops involved were given the option yo retire!

IMO they should have not been given this option, legally charged and have their entire pension removed.

[breadstixandhommus]

On the subject of the pension, would it not be better if they had the amount they paid out of their own pocket returned but do not get a penny of the employers contributions (which could then be used to bump up the dismal compensation this poor girl was given despite this no doubt life changing trauma)?

Maybe I'm barking completely up the wrong tree but these officers have got to face some kind of consequences of their prejudice. This poor young lady may never have the strength to live a normal life again, therefore may not be able to have the 'luxury' of building up a pension pot.

[TTWK]

On the subject of the pension, would it not be better if they had the amount they paid out of their own pocket returned but do not get a penny of the employers contributions (which could then be used to bump up the dismal compensation this poor girl was given despite this no doubt life changing trauma)?

Sounds good in theory but impossible in practice. The cost of a team of people calculating payments made by the employee going back 30+ years, splitting accrued bonuses out between bonuses on what they paid themselves and what their employer paid, it would just be ridiculously time consuming and hideously expensive. I'm not even sure it could be actually done. Does anyone know what thy paid themselves into a company pension scheme 30 years ago?

Sorry, but it's a non starter.

[whois]

People misunderstand. I don't think they should have their pension pot 'taken away' from them.

But they shouldn't be able to retire early and claim the full amount as if they had finished to full retirement. They have basically been rewarded.

[Anniegetyourgun]

Oh, I completely agree with you on that, whois, that's fair and appropriate. It's not what some people have said, though.

[agentEgypt]

No I think your right bread. Would be pretty easy to just refund all of their contributions, exactly as they contributed.

Its the employers contributions they should have raided if they are guilty of gross misconduct.

They should of all had a huge fine for how they behaved, but instead they get nothing and the tax payer pays a tiny amount in compensation.

[Koalafications]

breadstix Where would it stop? Would everyone's pensions be up for grabs if they were found guilty of gross misconduct at work? What protection would be in place for employees who are 'stitched up' by their employers who gave worked out that they can get money back from pensions if they sack an employee for gross misconduct? Is it just police that would have their pensions taken off them or would this be extended elsewhere.

It would just be another reason for people not to save for their retirement.

And I ask again, what would happen if some of the officers weren't in the scheme? How would we financially 'get them'?

I'm really stunned that anyone thinks this is a reasonable suggestion.

[agentEgypt]

I'm stunned some people want to allow people to have all their employment benefits even if they are guilty of gross misconduct.

The amount of uproar about bankers still having bonuses and pensions even after some of the things they've done, but police should be left alone?

[Anniegetyourgun]

Bonuses and pensions are not the same thing, you know

[CeliaLytton]

OP I totally agree with your title, you are 100% NBU.

However in your OP YABU.

I agree that these police office should have had to face the consequences of their actions and that they should not have been allowed to retire or resign in order to brush the incident under the carpet.

I do not agree that they should have had their 'entire pension removed'.

I believe these are separate issues. The fact that they were allowed to quietly disappear off the radar is wrong but as pp have said, what if there was one officer who had opted out of the pension scheme, would he have had to sell his house for example to pay the equivalent 'fine'?

And I also do not agree that doing your job well in the past gives you a free pass to make such a monumental mistake without having to answer for it.

[agentEgypt]

Wal-Mart strips chief of pension





By David Litterick in New York
12:01AM BST 14 Jun 2005
Wal-Mart yesterday stripped its former vice-chairman of his retirement package and retrospectively fired him for gross misconduct.

Thomas Coughlin will lose out on a package of around $12m (£6.7m) in stock options after the world's largest retailer said an internal investigation had found he had been "engaged in a scheme to misappropriate corporate funds and property for his own personal benefit".

[NRomanoff]

Well they can't not give them the whole of their pension. As they pay into it. However, this pisses me off. You do something appalling so they let you retire quietly, not really facing many consequences. Happens all the time.

It happens more than people know. Get them to retire instead of having to discipline them.

[TTWK]

agentEgypt, The Wal mart guy was stripped of his retirement package which gave him stock options (the right to buy shares at a preferential rate and sell at market rate). He was not stripped of his pension pot.

Two entirely different things.

Police do not get stock options or a "package" after they retire, other than their own pension that they have built up over decades.

[Koalafications]

And the best back up you can find for your argument is a case from America from 10 years ago. Fucking hell, I think I can hear you scrapping the bottom of that barrel.

[Koalafications]

*scraping

[namechange0dq8]

agentEgypt, do you have reading problems? Stock options aren't a pension.

[agentEgypt]

OK how about this one:
›

Disgraced ex-cop KEEPS his police pension because he was off duty when he raped woman
08 NOVEMBER 2013 11:22 AM BY MIKE BLACKBURN
The offences by the constable - described as a “sexual predator” - were committed while he was a serving police officer but not on duty
284 Shares
Wayne-Scott.jpgPA
Keeps his pension: Wayne Scott
A disgraced ex-cop will keep his police pension - because the rape for which he was convicted was committed while he was off duty.

Wayne Scott did not appear in court for the on-duty offence for which was sacked from Cleveland Police - sexually assaulting a woman in a police van - so the force is unable to strip him of his pension.

It comes despite legal efforts to block the pension - and has prompted outrage by one of his victims as well as MP James Wharton.

Last week at Newcastle Crown Court, Scott was found guilty of rape and attempted rape in 2006 and 2007.


The offences were committed while he was a serving police officer - but when he was not on duty.

The 37-year-old, who has twice tried to kill himself while in custody, has also admitted seven other rapes and two common assaults on another woman and a sexual assault on a child.

The crimes of the former Cleveland Police constable - described as a “sexual predator” - span the last decade.

He served with the Cleveland force between August 2002 and October 2012 - and had a catalogue of sexual offences against women which began just a year after he joined.

He was sacked from the force last year for gross misconduct after a member of the public reported he sexually touched her in a police van.

Scott was on duty at the time of that incident.

In total police believe there are 11 potential victims.

Wayne Scott in custody
VIDEO LOADING
Wayne Scott in custody
When questioned by the Evening Gazette, Cleveland Police confirmed Scott could still claim his police pension - worth thousands of pounds a year - despite efforts by the force to block it.

The Home Office said police pension regulations state the blocking of a police pension must satisfy a three-stage process.

The first is that the officer had been convicted of an offence committed in connection with his service as a member of a police force.

Scott was off-duty when he committed the offences for which he was tried last week.

And, crucially, he was never taken to court for the one crime he did carry out on duty - and for which he was sacked - the sex assault in the police van.

The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) decided not to take that case to court.

A Home Office spokesman said: “This is a shocking case and where police officers are convicted of an offence which is connected to their service, the law allows for a Police and Crime Commissioner (PCC) to apply to forfeit an officer’s pension.

"We have received no application in this case.”

The police van assault victim, who cannot be named for legal reasons, was stunned to hear he could still draw his pension.

“It’s completely pathetic," she said. "He’s going to serve a few years and then he’s going to live happily ever after.”

Cleveland Police's Detective Superintendent Peter McPhillips said: “Wayne Scott’s behaviour has been both a disgrace and an affront to the office of constable.

“This is certainly a case where, if the law allowed it, we would be seeking to block his pension.

“To that end we have explored all legal avenues and taken specific advice from counsel but, as his convictions do not specifically relate to his service as a police officer, unfortunately pension forfeiture is not an option in this instance.

“This comes as a significant disappointment and does bring into question the adequacy of the current statutory framework.”

A spokesman for the PCC said: “The Police and Crime Commissioner has not applied for pension forfeiture as the law doesn’t allow it in this case.”

MP Mr Wharton said: “People will wonder how on earth it can be the case that even in the face of such despicable and disgusting crimes this man, who brought shame on the uniform he wore, can keep a pension pot most hard-working people could never afford.

“These rules need to be investigated and reviewed, it beggars belief that nothing can be done.”

The row is the second to hit Cleveland Police over pension payouts to disgraced former officers in the past year.

Former Chief Constable Sean Price kept his pension despite being sacked for gross misconduct in October 2012.

He left with a pension payout of around £300,000 and kept his annual pension of around £60,000-a-year.

The former deputy chief constable Derek Bonnard, also sacked for gross misconduct, also kept his pension.

In July, the Home Affairs Select Committee recommended that police officers who commit serious misconduct should have their pensions docked.

Scott, formerly of Stockton, will be sentenced on December 23 at Newcastle Crown Court.




Related Topics
CLEVELAND POLICEHOME OFFICECRIMERAPEPENSIONS STRIKE
Bahmani Ahmadi: One of UK's most dangerous paedophiles may have attacked HUNDREDS of children
22 MAY 2015 01:45 PM BY JEREMY ARMSTRONG
One senior police officer described Ahmadi, 22, of Newcastle, as "the most dangerous" offender he had encountered in a long-running investigation into abuse
6 Shares
Bahmani-Ahmadi.jpg
Facing jail: Bahmani Ahmadi
ONE of the UK's most dangerous paedophiles is facing jail as police warned he may have attacked hundreds of children.

Bahmani Ahmadi, 22, relentlessly pursued girls as young as 11 by posing as a 14-year-old named Holly on Facebook.

He tried to befriend his 'vulnerable' targets on-line before luring them to meet him for sex, plying them with drink.

One senior officer described him as "the most dangerous" offender he had encountered in a long-running investigation into abuse.

Ahmadi admitted a string of child sex offences, including sexual assault, grooming, and inciting child prostitution.

Newcastle crown court heard he plied his young victims with alcohol before abusing them.

He appeared briefly to plead guilty to all 18 charges against him, and will be sentenced in July.

Speaking after the case, Det Supt Steve Barron admitted there were real fears he had targeted hundreds of victims.

He said: "He was using social media to groom children, some as young as 11, with a view to actually meeting those children, taking them to his address and sexually offending against them, typically when they were under the influence of large amounts of alcohol.

"He is possibly the most dangerous person I've come across in 22 years of policing."

Ahmadi deliberately targeted vulnerable young girls through multiple Facebook accounts, pretending to be a young girl in order to groom them. Investigations are on-going to trace multiple victims.

Det Supt Barron added: "It is the volume of his offending, which I believe has gone on for several years, which makes him so dangerous.

"The fact that he has shown no remorse or recognition of the damage he has done demonstrates his cowardice.

"In stark contrast I want to commend the girls who have shown immense courage in their readiness to give evidence against him.

"We are working closely with our colleagues in social care and health to make sure these girls are given the support they need."


Case heard: Newcastle Crown court
Ahmadi, of Benwell, Newcastle, was identified by Operation Sanctuary, a long-running probe into sex crimes against vulnerable women and girls.

Det Supt Barron added: "When we arrested Ahmadi we seized a number of mobile phones and other devices.

"We have looked at every telephone number, photograph and message which has been a painstaking process but an important one.

"As a result, we have spoken to more than 100 girls and have many more to speak to. I believe there are other potential victims.

"I want to urge them to come forward. I can guarantee we will deal with them sensitively, protect their anonymity and offer them the support and help they need.

"The streets of are safer with Ahmadi off them. However, we will leave no stone unturned as our investigation into him continues."

Ahmadi will be sentenced on July 3, and faces a lengthy jail term.

He admitted two counts of sexual activity with a 15 year old child, two counts of sexual assault on two child victims, two counts of trafficking for the purposes of sexual exploitation, and one count of attempting to incite a child to engage in sexual activity.

He also pleaded guilty to inciting a girl of 17 into prostitution, five counts of inciting children under the age of 13 to engage in sexual activity, and five counts of inciting a child to engage in sexual activity where the victims were 13-16 years old.

Operation Sanctuary was launched in January 2014 by Northumbria Police with a wave of arrests after a report expressing concern for one girl.

It was broadened to include a wide number of cases involving vulnerable girls and young women.

To date, 120 people have been arrested in connection with the inquiry.




Related Topics
NORTHUMBRIA POLICECHILD GROOMINGCOURT CASECROWN COURTCRIME
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[Binkybix]

Does the case wipe out the years of 'good' policing that is behind them?

Given the evidence of their handling of this case I find it odd that tou assume they have good policing behind them. Maybe they were this appalling all along and have just been caught out this time.

It's shocking that they've been allowed to get away with this. Police force have a lot of power over us and they need to be held account by more than investigating themselves.

[TTWK]

I can't even be bothered with all that nonsense. I've paid into my pension for 30 yrs. Often when it was very hard to do so. That's my money. No one else's. As far as I'm concerned, regardless of what I do now, no matter what kind of gross misconduct I get up to, no fucker can have that money. It's mine, accrued and paid for with 30 yrs of honest toil, so you can all fuck right off.

Sack me, jail me, put me on at the start of News At 10, but get your thieving mitts off my effing dough!

[BarbarianMum]

That was a long post OP. I still don't agree with you. Full disciplinary, sacked and partial pension yes. Prosecuted if they've broken the law themselves, yes. Stripped of whole pension, no.

[BarbarianMum]

On a separate note, I think the sentance the rapist received was shockingly inadequate

[780539gjg]

Whilst we may be angry at what happened here, the reality is that if you heavily persecute someone who makes a mistake in their job, the outcome is people avoiding tricky bits of work or covering up when an error is made. Witch-hunts make us feel better (and politicians look better), but it's much more productive to look at the whole system and the way it failed this victim. That probably includes resources, training, culture etc. Unfortunately doing that is more difficult and expensive than just blaming a few 'rogue officers'.

[CatMilkMan]

They should be punished but YABU to think they should lose the pensions.

[VivaLeBeaver]

They did something wrong. Disciplinary action should be looked at which may involve them losing their job.

But people shouldn't have their pension taken away from them. For a start they've surely paid into that all their career?

[notauniquename]

Can you force someone to complete a discipline process?

If I turned round and told a customer where to go, there would undoubtedly be a disciplinary procedure.

If I then turned around and told my boss where to go, could they force me to partake in a procedure which may take 6 months, when I have given notice and I won't be around for the end of it?

Even suspending someone without pay during an investigation is a bit much, what if it turns out that after 6 months suspension without pay is innocent of claims brought against them, is it right that they were forced to suffer financially, (possibly loose their house and possessions) if it later transpires that they are not guilty of misconduct?



If I have a private pension that only has my money in it then of course it's all mine.
But what id I have an employer match contribution pension? (where half the money is not mine)
What if I had a final salary pension that was arranged as a part of a package deal, (e.g. nothing was taken directly from my wages and was all paid for by the "company" - in this case the police force/state)
What if I had no pension?

should the same amount be taken from each officers pension, or should the amounts be different and percentage based?

Do pensions really have anything to do with employment? - should you take away a pension or actually just fine a person individually, (which many amount to confiscating a pension if they have to draw down a huge amount to pay a fine.)

the only real answer would be to try the police officers involved, properly in a court for an offence. (as I said probably either perverting the course of justice or misconduct in a public office.
whilst it looks really "open/shut" from the outside. the fact that there has been an internal investigation. and no charges have been brought probably suggests that there isn't enough evidence to say outright that the police officers acted illegally.

which kind of ties in with the MPs thing mentioned earlier, I think that everybody knows what the MPs did with their expenses was wrong, and immoral, but, apparently not illegal. I'm guessing that the real problem is that there is no "offence" that really covers the police taking money for doing their job, but not actually doing said job. (said whilst slacking off work to post on mumsnet.)