Beavers, scouts, Church and finding a place to live...

[AcademicOwl]

Ok... slightly random question... We're looking to re-locate (can't afford to buy/rent any more in the area we live in) and went down to a rural bit of Devon (lived in Plymouth for 8 years, so know the area well) last weekend.

Thought it would be good to take DS (age 4) and DD (18m) to church (CofE) - we go fairly regularly here and although I'm an atheist who lost their faith, I like to think I'm open to being on a spiritual journey - and think it's important that children grow up understanding faith even if they don't choose it in the long run.

So, having a coffee afterwards and chatting to lots of lovely welcoming people. They mentioned the beavers & scouts and how wonderful they get so many in church on parade-day...
"yes" says one lady "they have to come to church or they're out. That's the rule."
"Really?" me, aghast.
"Yes, we give up a lot of our free time to run it, so they can at least come for that service. It's only last year that they stopped promising to do their duty to God, you know".
Carried on in same vein. Turns out that "they" are also "out" if they misbehave ("teachers have to put up with that stuff, but we don't).

I did gently challenge; but as there's no other obvious faith groups locally, apparently enforced presence at a church service is ok for all. As the beaver & scouts leaders pointed out, it's a civil service (remembrance day) and serving members of the armed forces go along.

You might ask, what is my problem; I was at church anyway... but it's the enforced approach of exclusion unless you submit to going to church. If that approach really worked then the church would have been heaving with tiny people (it wasn't and apparently Sunday school is lucky to get 2 or 3 children).

It's put me off moving to such a seemingly intolerant community; esp if I'd like DS to be involved in local beavers & scouts, etc. Plus, he's in early stages of being diagnosed with something autistic spectrum/ADHD/??? so he can be very disruptive and I'd hate to think that he'd be excluded. I'm fairly certain that wouldn't happen here (I know the local leader and he's always fab with DS).

Can anyone put my mind at rest? Or am I just a wishy-washy Guardian reader?

[DownByTheRiverside]

I found the Beavers, cubs and scouts very inclusive with my DS who has AS and was explosive with it. They worked hard with him and me, put in sanctions and tailored their expectations to what he was capable of achieving.
Unlike the bazillion other activities that couldn't cope, or be bothered to try. He's an Explorer scout now, and I'm so very grateful that they bothered.
Talk to the leaders, rather than snotty ladies in church. Share your concerns and see what accommodations they are prepared to consider. We were exceptionally lucky, from him being 6 to 19. I hope you are too.

[ElephantsNeverForgive]

Sorry wrong thread.
This might be better (yes I am bored and nervous about results tomorrow)

[LadyLuck10]

Nigella your son sounds awful.

[NigellasPeeler]

oh I have met worse ladyluck, much worse

[Thenapoleonofcrime]

there are some children who wouldnt mind going out in the evening to be yelled at, and some that would object. quite frankly I am happy that my son is in the second group

I have found the way the leaders and assistants at my dds' groups pretty bad at managing children, they seem to do it in the old-style 1970's shout a lot, tell them off and generally shame them if say they've forgotten something (even though the communication about what to bring is dire). I completely know where you are coming from- but I think it's down to the individual leader to set the tone, plus some groups are huge (my dd's Guides is about 25/30) and that's quite difficult to manage.

Before anyone says, well, why not volunteer? I have, on two events, I wasn't particularly welcomed, they don't seem to want to include parents, but do spend quite a bit of time making remarks about them and rolling their eyes about them.

It's all very odd, tbh, but my girls enjoyed it for the term they went, not sure if they want to continue though for the above reasons.

[WooWooOwl]

Our local group does expect cubs and scouts to do the Remembrance Day parade, and they expect a letter from parents if they don't attend. I don't think its too much to ask tbh.

I also don't think that volunteers should be expected to put up with bad behaviour from the same children on a regular basis. They are giving up their time, they don't have special training in dealing with bad behaviour, and they have a responsibility to keep the group safe and enjoyable for the majority which is very hard to achieve with repeated bad behaviour.

[Thebodyloveschocolateandwine]

I think you need to look at schools and catchment areas op.
Transport and faculties.

My dd did brownies for 4 weeks and my
Lads never sent back after one meeting.

Surely you really arnt basing your decisions on such a transient thing.

[Stinkle]

they don't have special training in dealing with bad behaviour,

Our group does do quite a lot of training with the leaders - DH is the Scout Leader and he's done training on dealing with challenging behaviour and stuff like that.

Our leaders do work really hard with the children but sometimes, unfortunately, there does come a point when certain behaviours can't be tolerated anymore

[Groovee]

I'm not aware of what the Scout's Rules are but my son's group only have to go once a year to a youth service for every youth organisation who partake in the youth programme there. But there have been years when we can't go, so he hasn't and nothing has been said!

But in Girl Guiding we cannot enforce church parade. My brownies use a church hall for our meeting place but we have never been forced or asked to attend any of the church services.

[RedToothBrush]

WaffleWiffle Wed 20-Aug-14 11:06:50
It's only last year that they stopped promising to do their duty to God, you know".

That's Girlguiding, not Scouting.

Actually its both. DH is an atheist Scout Leader.
He was quite pissed off at a recent large local event, when they were asked to say the promise, but were not given enough time to recite the atheist version.

In our experience, what you will find is the character of a troop is very much dependant on the volunteers who run it. He has come across some very very church focused leaders (and indeed ones who have come out with things that were downright racist and shocked him whilst training).

He on the other end of the scale is completely the opposite and really would have no problem with children not attending church (as much as anything because he doesn't like it either!!!). He does support Remembrance Day Parade though, even though it includes a Church Service, because he thinks its secular importance is extremely important and is a very personal thing to him.

As for special needs; again it depends on the leaders. DH has come across many Scouts with physical and learning difficulties and the groups he has worked with most definitely promote inclusion.

He has been working with two different troops for the last few months as well as specialising in an outdoor extra activity where he comes into contact with a lot of leaders from other groups. How all the troops are run is amazingly different - I do feel that actually in some respects, going to the most obvious one, may not be the best thing to do and sometimes, hunting around a little for one that matches your preferences is better.

To highlight how differently things run from troop to troop, group DH works with has 32 Scouts max, the other 24 max and he is aware of another very locally that has 48! This has a huge impact on the way they can cope with and conduct activities.

At the end of the day, I don't see how they can exclude your child if you have certain religious beliefs without being discriminatory. Scouting is NOT a Christian Group (although I am aware of leaders who act like it is). Scouting is not supposed to push religion though spirituality (and therefore religion) can be part of that.

The official policy on religion is:
The religious policy encourages exploration and development rather than religious or 'faith specific' education, so it follows that spiritual development may be encouraged throughout the Scouting Programme through all kinds of 'normal', 'ordinary' Scouting activities.

If there is something that says you HAVE to attend a Christian Service within Scouting Policy, I've love to know what it is, because I'm certainly unaware of it (and DH would also love to know, so he can question its validity with the changes in the rules about the promise and how he fits in with that).

[myotherusernameisbetter]

Interesting one this as I received the first (what seemed to me) "3 line whip" regarding church attendance for my Scouts last week.

There is a new minister and he "wants" as many of the uniformed groups at a church service.

As an athiest I resent it being sold as an obligation to attend the recruitment drive in return for using the hall. I also resent the assumption that we are Christian.

On the other hand I am happy for them to go to the Rememberence Day service as that isn't about religion as far as I am concerned, that's about being respectful to those who died in the Wars.

I have no issue with education about different religions and cultures - worship is another matter. If they want to tie their groups to the Church, then they need to set up Boys Brigrade and Girls Brigade instead.

[SoonToBeSix]

Op it is about respect , if your son can't give up one day a year to attend church that's a pretty poor show.

[titchy]

Myother - sounds like your new vicar needs reminding!

[myotherusernameisbetter]

titchy I agree. I sent back a note to the Scout leader saying that I very much appreciate all the work they do etc but didn't like the tone of the message from the minister.

[honeysucklejasmine]

In my district we do not insist that girls attend extra events but we like to ask. Tbh a lot of them don't think too much in to it. They go in to a beautiful room, link some Carols and say their promise again (new religion free one).

On remembrance we meet at the cenotath, one of the local vicars leads a short service, sing a song etc. At neither event do we tell the girls to swear allegiance to christianity or cone non believers to hell. Honestly, i wonder how people could get their knickers in a twist about it.

Expectations would be no different to them visiting a mosque or synagogue for an event. Just politeness. Not a conversion hard sell. Rural places just tend to involve church hosted events. No stoning of the unbelievers will take place.

[AcademicOwl]

Wow - thanks for the amazing variety of responses!

To be clear; the two ladies I was talking to were the beaver/scout leaders...

...completely appreciate they are volunteers & it can be a difficult thing to do...

...still feel very uncomfortable with the absolute exclusion that was attached with not attending a church service - even on the basis of faith. I did chat at some length about it with them - and as I said, I tend to go to church anyway, so you could query why I've got an issue with the "go-or-you're-out" expectation. Surely forcing something like that only alienates people who struggle with faith (but then maybe that doesn't matter?). it's only in the past few years that I've felt able to step inside a church (having lost my faith) without sobbing hysterically... I guess it's just not a terribly tolerant attitude and I guess that's what surprised me.

...and, yes, I try to be super-tolerant and kind; so get a bit frustrated when I don't see that reflected.

...and, finally, to the people who pointed out how nice the people were doing the coffee - yes, you're absolutely right. But being able to make a nice cup of tea doesn't mean you're not intolerant or a secret mass murderer with badgers in your freezer

As far as the big question of moving, I guess it's little bits and pieces that stick together and make a picture... but it's really helpful to know that this is sometimes par for the course with the scouting movement; maybe it's scouting that's not my bag - rather than the community! I was a brownie for a bit (early 80's), until it gave me nightmares and I started to sleepwalk - at which point my mother agreed to me not having to go any more.

Just worried we don't end up in an area where it's the only thing to do and DS gets chucked out due to wonky behaviour and belligerent mum. That'd be bad.

[AcademicOwl]

soontobe - it's not about respect from DS; he (probably) will go where I take him; it's about us being forced into it...

honeysuckle - same thing, really. I wouldn't mind being 'asked' at all - indeed, I'd probably be happy to help out. I just don't agree with forcing people with a 'do-it-or-you're-out' approach.

as I've mentioned, I struggle with church/faith and just feel very strongly that tolerance of other people's views on something so personal is really important. I guess it's part of a wider debate on the role of religion in society, isn't it?

[swampytiggaa]

We are in north Devon op. We have two very active scout groups in our town.

Church attendance is twice a year for us. Remembrance Day and St George's day. St George is the patron saint of scouting and actually it tends to be more of an award ceremony for leaders/young leaders etc than a religious service.

It is a three line whip for both. Last remembrance day we had every beaver/cub/scout and explorer bar one attend. The missing one was attending at the army base his dad was on. We have special scarves and everything for it.

Regarding the behaviour... We are pretty long suffering but will speak to the parents if children are very disruptive. I am a beaver leader. We have one lead currently who is not able to come out on trips with us unless a patent comes too and takes full responsibility for him.

We also have children with ASD. They take full part in our activities and have as much fun as everyone.

So come to north Devon :)

[RedToothBrush]

AcademicOwl, I've just had a chat with DH about this. He says it is more difficult if the group in question is connected with a Church directly, BUT if your child fulfils the spiritual element of the programme in other ways (which they are allowed to do so and the programme supports) then they are absolutely NOT obliged to go to church if they do not want to / you do not want to.

He cites an example of what happened in Derby when girls were first allowed into Scouts. One group took it upon themselves to refuse to do this. They were reported to Scout HQ at Gilwell and they did the only thing they could under the circumstances because this was discrimination on the grounds of gender. They revoked the leaders wood badges (leadership badges).

He says that if he heard about a similar situation locally, he personally would challenge it at district level as its unacceptable and he knows a lot of other leaders who would also be uncomfortable with it too. (So in a theoretical situation where this did actually happen, he would suggest talking to the leader of another troop locally who was sympathetic or to take it up with Gilwell)

In short, they technically CAN NOT do this despite what they might be saying. They CAN NOT hold a gun to your head and say this is a requirement of joining the group as this is not consistent with official Scout Policy.

In terms of respect - respect can be shown in many different ways. Going to Church is not the only way to do it. Leaders have a responsibility to show respect for other people's beliefs as much as a cub/beaver should show respect for the leaders views.

Certainly I do think, that there is room for compromise within that. For example, I believe it would be perfectly possible to show support and respect by attending a parade but not attending the accompanying Church Service too if that was a suitable alternative.

[Cheeky76890]

DS attends scouts but not church. I think the only religious activities have been something to do with Buddhism and the May Day celebrations. His scouts are very interesting, so even the extra lively kids are engaged

[Cheeky76890]

Remembrance day not May Day

[SallyMcgally]

We're in Devon. My DS go to scouts. They haven't been going very long (since beginning of the year) but there hasn't been a peep yet about having to go to church.

[DinoSnores]

"I think she was thinking of Guides which your son will not be joining."

Church Parade is NOT a compulsory part of the Guide programme not should it ever be.

"Attendance at any act of worship must always be voluntary and be seen as part of the spiritual development of the individual member. Attendance at church parade or any religious gathering is not part of the guiding programme."

guidingmanual.guk.org.uk/policies/equality_and_diversity.aspx

[AcademicOwl]

oooh. maybe DS can be a guide instead?

[AcademicOwl]

Red - that's interesting. the thing is, I really don't want to upset everyone by moving to an area and picking a fight... not a good way to make friends and influence people!
Sounds like it is a much broader organisational issue, tho. Seems Equality and Diversity training might not have had much impact on scouting...!