Beavers, scouts, Church and finding a place to live...

[AcademicOwl]

Ok... slightly random question... We're looking to re-locate (can't afford to buy/rent any more in the area we live in) and went down to a rural bit of Devon (lived in Plymouth for 8 years, so know the area well) last weekend.

Thought it would be good to take DS (age 4) and DD (18m) to church (CofE) - we go fairly regularly here and although I'm an atheist who lost their faith, I like to think I'm open to being on a spiritual journey - and think it's important that children grow up understanding faith even if they don't choose it in the long run.

So, having a coffee afterwards and chatting to lots of lovely welcoming people. They mentioned the beavers & scouts and how wonderful they get so many in church on parade-day...
"yes" says one lady "they have to come to church or they're out. That's the rule."
"Really?" me, aghast.
"Yes, we give up a lot of our free time to run it, so they can at least come for that service. It's only last year that they stopped promising to do their duty to God, you know".
Carried on in same vein. Turns out that "they" are also "out" if they misbehave ("teachers have to put up with that stuff, but we don't).

I did gently challenge; but as there's no other obvious faith groups locally, apparently enforced presence at a church service is ok for all. As the beaver & scouts leaders pointed out, it's a civil service (remembrance day) and serving members of the armed forces go along.

You might ask, what is my problem; I was at church anyway... but it's the enforced approach of exclusion unless you submit to going to church. If that approach really worked then the church would have been heaving with tiny people (it wasn't and apparently Sunday school is lucky to get 2 or 3 children).

It's put me off moving to such a seemingly intolerant community; esp if I'd like DS to be involved in local beavers & scouts, etc. Plus, he's in early stages of being diagnosed with something autistic spectrum/ADHD/??? so he can be very disruptive and I'd hate to think that he'd be excluded. I'm fairly certain that wouldn't happen here (I know the local leader and he's always fab with DS).

Can anyone put my mind at rest? Or am I just a wishy-washy Guardian reader?

[myotherusernameisbetter]

I think packs really do differ a lot in their expectations and rules etc.

Mine are now at Explorer and last year in Scouts level having both attended since they were 5 and 3 quarters. They have changed from group to another when in Cubs as I wasn't happy with the Cubs they were at - the leader, while completely dedicated and hard working didn't really have a handle on the group, the boys were running riot and we had a parent Rota to help which sort of worked but often meant that younger siblings had to be brought along which at times made it worse. On one occaision on a trip to the park, my very quiet son was brutally punched by a random older child in the park - I felt there were safety issues, I spoke to the district leader about it but moved my son anyway as he had a friend at another troup.

My two have attended every Rememberance Service (which takes place at the memorial) but last week was the first "request" to attend a general church service that we have had. I hope it is the last.

On the other hand, I have noticed all sorts of differences. One Pack seems to only organise 1 camp a year which is in dorms, ours have them camping out in tents 4-5 times a year including a january camp out. Ours allows them to bring along knives to specified evenings when younger and to all camps and as Senior scouts they carry them to everything. Most other packs we have come across don't allow knives at all. I guess it is up to the leaders to set what activities and allowances they feel comfortable with given the attendees.

I have only known one boy expelled and he did thoroughly deserve it and he was given lots of opportunities, including having his mother attend. I had spoken to the leader about it at length as the boy was a neighbour of ours and was giving my younger son a hard time in the street and was carrying that into Cubs. His view which I was happy to support was that he would like to try to keep him in Cubs on the basis that they could maybe help to turn his behaviour around. Given that the police were a regular feature in this boys life, I think he had his work cut out. My son was slightly order so had moved on to Scouts by the time that so many parents had put in complaints and were intending to withdraw their children that he had no option but to tell him not to come back. It really was a last resort.

[Oblomov]

Sorry OP but I can't believe you're even quibbling about this.
Ds1 is Aspergers and the Cub Leader is fantastic. One oarsde ire year? Oh purlease. And I too wound expect good behaviour. And that why I send him. And he adores it.

[Wherediparkmybroom]

It's two parades a year where I am, they still promise to love their god in beavers. I think it's a good thing, it's a small part of understanding religion delivered quite gently. As for behaviour and attendance, bloody right they are not teachers, they don't have to put up with crap from kids that often are rude and badly behaved at school, and to be honest boys that are a nightmare in the playground and hell to have round to play, behave at beavers. Boisterous good spirits are fine in our group but rudeness, bullying etc are not tolerated.
There is also a waiting list for our troop! You are lucky to be able to get a place immediately.
If you don't like it send ds to football after school instead!

[Pantah630]

Bizarre, our District asked for two representatives from each pack for Remembrance Day Parade as we struggle to fit them all in the local Priory along with ex servicemen, other organisations, etc.. Therefore we ask for volunteers, no one is forced to attend. St Georges Day is different and we'd love for full attendance but we never have it, lots of families have other commitments so generally we have half to three quarter attendance, again nothing enforced.

I've yet to exclude or even suspend any Cubs for bad behaviour despite plenty of challenging behaviour from a couple. We speak to ours and their parents as necessary but thankfully have never needed to ask anyone not to come back. You can't expect a group of 30+ 8-11 year olds not to want to let off steam now and again, ridiculous. If what you say is true OP, I'd look for a different pack, they certainly aren't following POR.

[myotherusernameisbetter]

What I don't get is why don't people who want to be involved in a Christian based youth group form a branch of Boys or Girls brigaid instead which are very much Christian church affiliated groups rather than Scouts/Guides?

I personally don't think religious worship has any place in school or other secular organisations.

[Ormally]

Er... I'm sure that a few posters have said this on here, but a) can you make sure that this is actually true (or not), by contacting the cub and scout leaders themselves, rather than going on what one person may have said (and if she is one and the same, then only you know how much you're prepared to tolerate or agree with her); and b) as far as I recall, as uniformed organisations, you probably should be prepared and dare I say, willing, to be present on Remembrance Sunday (although no-one can actually force you to go and there is nothing stopping you giving your reasons to the group in advance why you would feel uncomfortable with that).

Either way, joining AFTER Remembrance Sunday in November would seem to be a sensible thing in the first instance as you can see whether you think the group is a good fit for your family and whether your son may want to be there.

[DinoSnores]

That's not great then and not my experience of Girlguiding. If that's the case, I'd suggest speaking to the local leadership so they can review what the girls are being required to do. (Google your county and Girlguiding and that should find your county office. If you need help, feel free to PM me and I can find details for you.)

[Lucyccfc]

All the Brownie packs where I live encourage the girls to go to church (it's more about putting pressure on them rather than insisting). They are however expected to be involved with all the 'walks' that the church are involved with, such as the Whit Walks, rememberence Sunday etc.

We have a large Muslim community where we live and do not see any of their girls at Brownies. I was chatting to one of the Mums at school and we got talking about 'clubs' outside of school. She said that she didn't feel comfortable about her DD joining brownies because of their obvious links with the church. They are Muslim.

For me it is time to cut all links with the church for brownies, guides, cubs and scouts and then they will be seen as more inclusive.

[DinoSnores]

lucy, I am really puzzled by your comment about the Brownies. (I am a Brown Owl so feel I can comment on this, although I don't know much about the Scouts.)

No Brownie pack should be actively or passively discriminating against anyone based on faith or lack thereof and if you actually know of a pack that does, I suggest you speak to Girlguiding about your concerns there. I wonder though if it might be supposition or based on outdated practices...

I linked to it above but will again:

guidingmanual.guk.org.uk/policies/equality_and_diversity.aspx

[Lucyccfc]

When I went to Brownies back in the 1970's, you had to attend church every week to enable you to go be a Brownie. When I made the decision that religion wasn't for me, I had to give up Brownies too.

I would have no issue with non-religious celebrations like St George's Day.

For,those of you who think that it's ok for individual groups to decide how much they link with the church - this can actually end up meaning that the 'leaders' are discriminating against those of other faiths. Would you tell a Muslim, Jew or Hindu that they have to attend church (for whatever reason).

Some scout/brownie packs are not inclusive and actively discriminate against people.

Hence, one of the reasons why my son will not be joining any of these groups. Religion is rammed down his throat at school, without it happening in his spare/play time.

[JerseySpud]

And if you are that anti scouting try the St Johns Ambulance 'Badgers'

[JerseySpud]

As a scout leader i dont just give up one hour a week to run a meeting.

I also go to term planning meetings, island meetings, group planning meetings. I attend courses on everything first aid to managing challenging behaviour to health and safety.

I am CRBed, Safe guarded and first aid trained.

We do not insist that the children attend the church ceremonies, far from it. Ours attend parades and thats it. There is nothing nicer than seeing all our island Scouts (of all ages) in uniform marching through town and is a real sense of pride.

And Scouting is not anti any religion. There is no policy of "Jews and Muslims are not allowed to attend" the same as there is no policy are preventing those with a disability from attending. Scouting is inclusive of everyone.

[minipie]

UNderstood RedToothbrush but if there is a local branch which is imposing out of date or wrong requirements (like church attendance), what can be done about that? What can the OP do?

I guess she could write to the "head office" of Scouts and say "your local branch in X town is insisting we must go to church to be admitted" but if the head office does intervene and make them change their practice, that's hardly going to go down well with the local volunteers is it...

[RedToothBrush]

The private voluntary organisation DOES NOT INSIST on it though. And thats the real point that needs to be made here. The organisation promotes and supports diversity and respect of ALL faiths.

Its just that not all groups within the organisation, are following this, and for various reasons (usually to do with power and people like the OP not wanting to rock the boat) they are not being challenged when they should be. There are institutionalised problems with individual groups.

I think its fair to acknowledge this and admit the weaknesses of Scouting - because if you don't you end up allowing it to continue. Its only awareness with parents that Scouting is NOT a christian group and you do not have to attend church that will change that over time. Parents need to be aware that compromises and exceptions can and should be facilitated on the groups of belief without being discriminated against or feeling like they are somehow being difficult.

[Pipbin]

I went to Brownies for years as a child in the 70s and 80s.

My family are Very Atheist, they make Dawkins look like a church goer, they had no problem with my join Brownies and I don't recall ever going to church, but I did do the parades.

[minipie]

Ok this is a bit of a tangent but...

... in a country where state run taxpayer funded schools can insist on church attendance in exchange for a place, it's hardly surprising that a private voluntary organisation can do the same.

[EduCated]

I often say to people that if you're not impressed with a particular group then there's nothing wrong with trying another group, sometimes it's just about finding the right fit for your child, and of course, at the end of the day it's just not for everyone.

I realise that's easier said than done in places with fewer groups available.

[RedToothBrush]

^I really don't want to upset everyone by moving to an area and picking a fight... not a good way to make friends and influence people! smile
Sounds like it is a much broader organisational issue, tho. Seems Equality and Diversity training might not have had much impact on scouting...!^

TBH, I wasn't suggesting you should. More that the point is, this type of leadership isn't universal and is actually out of step with what the official policy is and a lot of leaders would be very unhappy about this.

In terms of other religions, there are scout troops within the UK that are predominantly other faiths - the organisation is not a Christian organisation. So its not even a case of 'my troop has X amount of Jewish or Muslim children'.

Training is something that is largely down to individual troops; some are more pro-active about it than others. Stuff that is compulsory isn't consistent because of when people took training. Newer leaders will tend to be better trained in certain areas because they have had the more recent training. Equally though a lot of older leaders will do top up courses, they then ignore them in practice because they are institutionalised in their way of doing things. The amount of "well this is the way we've always done it" that I've witnessed is scary. Its not true of all older / younger leaders, but there is definitely a generational divide that does seem to exist unfortunately, for a number of reasons.

There are a lot of very liberal minded Scout Leaders - just as there are a lot of very conservative minded ones. There are a lot of better trained leaders than others. Its a very mixed bag.

I definitely would not judge the organisation on ONE set of leaders or ONE troop. Its varies enormously. My best advice would be to look at a couple near by and see which suits you more - particular since you have a child who has some issues because this does give you more of a justification to ask questions (and not put anyone's nose out of joint!).

[RobinHumphries]

I wonder which group in Derby refused girls.... certainly wasn't mine.

[Stalinssister]

My son went to Beavers for a very short time aged about seven. I naively didn't realise how much this particular group was tied in to the church. On the first visit, it was made very clear to me as the Arkala (phonetic spelling) asked all the new ones pointedly which schools they went to, and made it very clear she approved of the church schools and not the secular ones.

I was put off by that but decided to give it a go for DS's sake. It was incredibly cliquey and I did not enjoy it at all, the people at the church schools all stuck together and were pretty unfriendly. Again I though it was about DS not me, so I kept taking him. In the end, he decided he had had enough. Some of the other boys were incredibly badly behaved and he got fed up with that, rather than the church element.

I would have found it more honest if they had said at the outset: "We like religious kids so i wouldn't bother unless you want to be cold-shouldered", (although I suppose they aren't supposed to say that). They have made their views clear OP, so you could always try something else like the Woodcraft Folk if you are not comfortable with their ethos.

[NigellasPeeler]

I was perfectly happy with cub Scouts - it just did not suit my DS so he did not go - that was my original point - that scout leaders should not be expected to be all patient and into behaviour management.

[Swooshtheninja]

Were they definitely part of The Scout Association (TSA) ?

There is another scouting group called British Boy Scouts/Girl Scouts who are far more traditional than TSA and stick far closer to the original set up of scouting from 1907 including carrying staves, wearing hats/caps, shorts and knee high socks. They are far more religious than the scout association and have a series of Christian faith badges that young people have to progress through and weekly attendance at church is mandatory.

They follow the same principles as scouting but are nothing to do with the scout association who are open to people of all faiths/beliefs. I'm an atheist scout leader and we only ask our scouts to attend St Georges day and Remembrance Sunday parades.

[NigellasPeeler]

oh not I am not trying to pcik a fight just talking too much as usual - my apologies

[honeysucklejasmine]

Nigella why are you trying to pick a fight with people who give up hours of their own time to help other peoples children.

If you weren't happy with the provision with your DC, maybe start helping out as a leader, and change it from the inside. Very easy to stand on the sidelines and criticise.

[NigellasPeeler]

not stupid, realistic