did everyone know this was a racist song? (am i the only one who didnt?)

[deakymom]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-27360884

okay so basically the sun has got his hat on has the n word in it i never knew that i spoke to someone about it and they gave me the look "everyone knows that don't they?" no i didnt we used to sing it in school i really dont remember that word being there?

am i the only one who didnt know?

[LarrytheCucumber]

In the course of his work my DS has frequently been called 'white boy' but that doesn't seem to matter as long as he doesn't make a racist remark in return. Makes me cross.He just lets it all wash over him.

[YeGodsAndLittleFishes]

Exactly aermingers.

[Caitlin17]

I really don't buy "rappers are reclaiming the word" For it to be reclaimed it would have had at some point no negative connotations.

"Gay" for example is used as a horrible insult but has 2 other perfectly acceptable meanings.

The use of the n word or indeed honky by rappers is just to shock and possibly to laugh at over-sensitive liberals trying to make it acceptable.

[NotNewButNameChanged]

Caitlin there was a thread on this at the time of the Clarkson incident.

As I pointed out, in 1885, Gilbert and Sullivan's Mikado had a reference to a "nigger serenader" which in the 1940s was replaced by "banjo". This was not, back in 1885, an offensive remark. It referred to groups of black musicians who came over from America and performed in London and the provinces and who called themselves The Nigger Minstrels. It was not used as a derogatory term, in this country at least, until much later, so in terms of your last comment, it could be stated with some accuracy that it certainly didn't have a negative connotation at some point - in the UK, anyway.

Either that, or black musicians were 'reclaiming' it over 100 years before the rappers felt the need to.

[DoJo]

I'm astonished at how many people are tripping over themselves to say that it's all fine, he's 70 so can't possibly know the content/understand what's wrong with it...

Who has said that?

[NotNewButNameChanged]

It's OK. Our Glorious Leader, "Call Me Dave" Cameron, has been on TV this morning to say the BBC seems to have over-reacted in this instance.

[Oldraver]

I didnt have a clue, I only know the first verse and regularly sing (ahem) this to DS.

[ComposHat]

Elvis Costello's Oliver's Army is about the British government recruiting for the army in areas of high areas of youth employment (the boys from the mersey, the thames and the tyne) to maintain british rule in Northern Ireland. Oliver being Oliver Cromwell

I think the 'all it takes one itchy trigger, one more widow one less white nigger' makes use of a term that was routinely applied by British soldiers to the native population, 'white niggers' or 'the niggers of Europe'. So I'd say given the context of highlighting the bigotry it is integral to the song.

This is why context is important.

[TillyTellTale]

DoJo

Fair enough. That is a possible interpretation.

I think that this is probably one of those cases where you need to know the person! I suppose I know people, who if in this situation, would mean the words the way you take it. Unfortunately I also know people who would mean his words the way I interpreted them.

With the present political situation, I think I'm getting overly bad-tempered, and seeing the worst in everyone. Sorry.

[StealthPolarBear]

So it isnt the case that the word itself should never be said or heard.

[AnyaKnowIt]

I didn't know, until I made the same mistake at a kids birthday party.

Thought it was a safe kids song on YouTube, stuck to the Mr tumble version now.

[FreudiansSlipper]

The 'n' word was socially acceptable as it was socially acceptable to be racist the word has always been offensive

It was was used then as you were not often questioned, I am sure many did not give it a second thought but that does not mean the word was not offensive because it was and still is

[DoJo]

Tilly

I completely agree re. people who 'blame' political correctness for preventing them from being complete arses (although most of them still manage somehow!) but this is the sort of situation which feeds that IMO. If we can't react proportionally to things then it plays into the hands of those who claim that 'you can't say anything these days' whilst undermining the seriousness and pervasiveness of real racism by lumping it in with those who make fairly simple mistakes.

On the other hand, it sounds like you have to put up with a lot more overt instances of racism than I do so I will count my blessings that I have that luxury and wish you good luck with your family!

[YeGodsAndLittleFishes]

So it isn't the case that the word itself should never be said or heard.

This is what the whole thing throws up. According to the BBC it is not worth it to grow a backbone, offer an apology and come up with an inteligent and workable way to avoid this happening again. Oh no, let's sack the DJ and ban the song.

Judging from all the replies on here, most people wanted the song banned because of the clear use of the offending word.

When people say something like 'they should have stayed in Timbuktu' or 'they should go back to Timbuktu' that is racist. Anything suggesting that people born in Britain with black skin don't belong in Britain as much as people with white skin and don't have the same rights, then that is racist.

Yet we have political parties in this country who are able to spout their racism from a political platform.

[OwlCapone]

According to the BBC it is not worth it to grow a backbone, offer an apology and come up with an inteligent and workable way to avoid this happening again. Oh no, let's sack the DJ and ban the song.

I wonder what colour the people who decided the DJ should be sacked are? Purely because these reactions are more often due to over zealous white people trying not to offend and be squeaky clean. Like the whole banning Baa Baa Black sheep stuff.

In cases like this, I think it is PC Gorn Mad insofar as it was a mistake and an apology, followed by steps to make sure it didn't happen again, would have sufficed. I don't mean that the word or song are acceptable.

[sauvignonblacks]

It's very contradictory considering the Jeremy Clarkson affair, but I don't think you can compare the use of the N word in this song to Rap Music, it's from a different era whereby its meant to be offensive, most rappers use it almost as a term of endearment, it's ownership of an offensive word.

[JaackSparroww]

Jeremy Clarkson did a video and said "oh god, it does sound like that doesn't it?"
Einie, meenie, minie, mo, catch a nipper by its toe, if he hollers let him go, einie, meenie, minie, mo.
if you wikipedia it they DID use that word in the older ones. Even so, the footage of Jeremy Clarkson saying this weren't even used in the show.
He apologised for it even though he didn't even say it.
This song is an old song but he could have used a newer one. Even my 80 year old grandmother would know that that word isn't to be used. ignorance is rife in this country.

[MakeMineaMartina]

Olivers army whatever the word is in context is still the n word yet played all the time on daytime radio and no one gets sacked.

[NotNewButNameChanged]

I've just discovered another thread in AIBU whereby a poster is being urged by the vast majority of posters to change the name of their dog, which is black in colour, and named by their young child as Blackie, because it might cause offence and it's not something you should be shouting in case it is misconstrued.

By that token, no ginger cats should be called Ginger for fear of upsetting someone with red hair who might move in next door.

Context?

[StealthPolarBear]

Thats what I dont understand makemine.
so clearly it's not just about the word it's about the context.
the context here if you ignore the word seems fairly benign. I'm sre im going to get flamed by this but I thought we were all differing colours because of the effects of the sun?

[NetworkGuy]

TTT : "Would someone older reasonably be expected to be familiar with the whole of it?"

I'm mid 50s. Don't remember hearing a second verse, to be frank, and if it was a version from 1932, just how old would one need to be for that version to be familiar, word for word?

Seems odd that from time to time, on BBC R4 Extra, there are comments about "views held at the time" when playing material from the 50s 60s 70s, as a warning that it may break current PC expectations, yet they can jump on a guy for what was likely to be a genuine mistake - I for one would not expect him to have chosen it if he had known, nor chosen it if he wanted to test the boundaries, but an oversight.

Yes, his comment about walking a tightrope might seem unapologetic, but so many who are "in the public eye" can say something which will cause offence, and not realise until too late.

[deakymom]

the full version of the dam busters is still shown i was surprised WTF did they call that DOG!!

[Montegomongoose]

Rap music is written by people who have reclaimed the word

I'd like to know how I explain that to my kids who (mixed race) have been raised to abhor the n-word but do understand they may encounter it in old books, films etc.

"Reclaimed" my arse.

It's either acceptable or not.

I'm going for 'not.'

[NotNewButNameChanged]

I agree with Monte on the "reclaiming" issue.

Rappers say they are "reclaiming" it. Does this mean that, at some point in the future, it will no longer be deemed an offensive term but be acceptable? And that people of all colours will be free to use it? I asked this question on the Clarkson thread and was told "no, of course not, it won't be right for anyone other than blacks to use it".

In my book, then, it's not reclaimed. The fact also remains that the vast majority of black people who aren't rappers don't like the word FULL STOP, whoever is using it. Therefore, it's not acceptable.