to ask -what is the problem with UKIP

[Ikip]

that Mners seem to have? I have read through their manifesto and it seems all very reasonable to me.
I can't see why opposing 'open door' immigration, and wanting out of Europe , invokes so much hatred on MN?

[katese11]

Apologies if anyone's mentioned this already but this alarms me:
Using the police to repress free speech??

[daska]

I'd be interested to know why any woman would vote for UKIP given that Farage and his UKIP MEP mates voted against making FGM and rape within marriage criminal offences AND UKIP's Small & Medium Business Spokesman has made it very clear that UKIP want to do away with guaranteed maternity leave, paid holiday etc and make them all contract specific. They sound a nightmare to me.

[MrsBlackthorn]

And UKIP are very much part of the problem when it comes to declining trust in politics - by blaming everything on "out of touch politicians", or indeed very much proving politicians are on the take, by taking the maximum amount in allowances themselves then not turning up to do the work people elected them to do, where they might actually make a difference.

[pointythings]

BeyondRepair I think we can all agree that the political establishment everywhere needs a kick in the vulnerables - but people also need to know that if they vote for UKIP, they are signing away their freedom of speech in the worst way.

[BeyondRepair]

• But the YouGov polling demonstrated that far from being confined to the UK, disenchantment with mainstream politics is a phenomenon that is sweeping the continent.
  
  Respondents to the poll in a range of European countries showed similar sentiments to those exhibited by UK voters.
  
  In Finland, 57% of people said they do not trust politicians; in Sweden 59%; Denmark 61% and Germany 70%.
  
  Voter dissatisfaction is strongest in France, where 78% of people said they do not trust politicians, leading to record levels of support for Marine le Pen's Front National.
  
  In short, the European elections are likely to result in a wave of success for minority and protest parties; and a massive slap in the face for Europe's political leaders.*
  
  This is more horrifying.

[GarlicMayHaveNamechanged]

Cripes, pointy!! I'm glad I've reposted it on this thread, then :)

[pointythings]

here is the problem with UKIP in a nutshell

I am horrified.

[MamaMary]

Thank you for the Michael Rosen quote - it articulates exactly what I meant by saying UKIP are FASCIST in character. If given a bite of actual power, they would soon start to have a chilling effect on our civil liberties and democracy.

[MrsBlackthorn]

" The changes you describe, if they occurred, would likely happen very gradually"

They would have to be negotiated as part of transitional arrangements. But it is lunacy to suggest, as UKIP do, that Britons will be able to continue living in the EU without us allowing EU citizens to continue to come here. No national government would agree to this.

[xpatmama]

good grief, the telegraph did a really thoughtful piece on immigration! It's really not as simple as the UKIPers believe;

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10822956/EU-elections-2014-Is-immigration-good-for-Britain.html

[UncleT]

Yes, but there wouldn't be any rapid expelling as neither side is going to want that. The changes you describe, if they occurred, would likely happen very gradually. People are heavily invested in the UK. Please don't think I am defending these clowns though - I am not.

[MrsBlackthorn]

"Mrs - and vice versa! Let's stop pretending that other countries don't have lots of their nationals in the UK that they won't want expelling too. It would not happen like that. There are two sides to that coin."

Indeed - if we want to enable our own citizens to continue working in Europe, we will need to negotiate with each government for this. As I said, this would generally be on the basis of reciprocity. They'd only let our citizens stay - or come in future - if we extend the same right to their citizens.

[xpatmama]

www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/news/kent-v-c-warns-of-dangers-to-he-of-leaving-eu/2013209.article

“Many voices are calling for the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the EU,” said Dame Julia. “Yet to do so would be bad for higher education – and much worse for our students and their future.”

Dame Julia also argued that the UK “secures a disproportionate amount of EU research, development and innovation funding, over €6 billion (£4.9 billion)”. And she said the nature of EU research funding means that it allows projects that individual member states could not undertake alone, in which the “high reputation of UK researchers” means they are able to “influence the European agenda”.

She continued: “The idea that we could outside the EU secure even a fraction of the money or influence is not viable.”

On the economic benefits, she noted that “the direct financial gain from EU students in fees and living expenses has been estimated at £2 billion a year, with the indirect benefits being even higher”. And she pointed out that EU mobility programmes such as Erasmus “represent the single biggest source of funding for UK students and staff hoping to pursue a study or work placement abroad”.

Dame Julia concluded: “Last, our membership of the EU matters because it helps define our view of ourselves.”

And she added: “By turning our back on the most important institution in our region, we would be damaging not just ourselves but also, much more importantly, our children and young people. We would do our students a severe disservice in restricting their ability to compete in the global economy.”

[UncleT]

Mrs - and vice versa! Let's stop pretending that other countries don't have lots of their nationals in the UK that they won't want expelling too. It would not happen like that. There are two sides to that coin.

[wigglylines]

unacceptablewedge thanks, that Michael Rosen quote is absolutely spot on IMO. Repeating it here for those who couldn't read the pic:

“I sometimes fear that people might think that fascism arrives in fancy dress worn by grotesques and monsters as played out in endless re-runs of the Nazis. Fascism arrives as your friend. It will restore your honour, make you feel proud, protect your house, give you a job, clean up the neighbourhood, remind you of how great you once were, clear out the venal and the corrupt, remove anything you feel is unlike you…It doesn’t walk in saying, “Our programme means militias, mass imprisonments, transportations, war and persecution.”

[MrsBlackthorn]

"that would assume that all Brits would immediately be denied any rights to be in EU countries"

I know that sounds melodramatic, but legally that would be the case. Brits working in the EU would indeed find their legal status changed. This would present two options:

• they will all need to apply, individually, for visas. Which would by no means be guaranteed, particularly in the case of the economically inactive, such as retirees
  

• the UK negotiates visa arrangements for its citizens with each country individually, or with Schengen as a block. This would take time, and is generally done on the basis of reciprocity - it is highly unlikely any nation would allow UK citizens freedom to live and work in their country unless we allowed their citizens the right to do the same.

[wigglylines]

.

[vrtra]

Ukip make me want to fucking vom. Apart from all the horrendous shit about disabled people, the racism, and the misogyny, they think I should not be able to get a council flat in the area I have lived for 20 years because none of my grandparents were born in the UK and I don't live near where I was born. Well that will backfire massively because by that line my strongest link is to central London as it's where my mum was brought up. Dibs on the Chiswick housing list.

Oh and my dad will no longer be able to live here as he is an Irish national?!

[UncleT]

Amanda that would assume that all Brits would immediately be denied any rights to be in EU countries, and also vice versa, that other EU folks would immediately be chucked out of the UK. Even if these fascists got into power, that would simply not be the case (and just in case you can't tell, I effing hate UKIP, but let's have some perspective and reality here please).

[UnacceptableWidge]

Possibly a more clear view of tweet than in previous post

[AnandaTimeIn]

Ukip are horendous.

No-one has even mentioned or thought about the fact if they realised their goal of leaving the EU (apart from everything else) there would be a fair queue of UK citizens working there who would be moving back needing jobs, housing, school places, services....

The EU city I live in has around 10.000 Uk expats.... (and no, it, s not Brussels or Strasbourg).

[UnacceptableWidge]

A few people I know, while not directly saying they will be voting UKIP, feel a lot of what UKIP represent makes sense.
I'm not sure that they think about much beyond the information fed by the media.
UKIP worry me. A lot. Think this tweet by the ever eloquent Mr Rosen explains perfectly what I find so chilling about that party and the decent, intelligent, moral people who think the little bits they know about them make them seem like a worthy alternative vote

[JassyRadlett]

Having looked at it more, I believe UKIP is just about getting enough people into parliament to tip the balance in favour of leaving Europe and curbing immigration, rather than being the government.I guess this is why their policies on other things seem a bit woolly because these 2 items are their only real agenda.

But OP, that isn't really good enough, is it? Unless they are only going to vote in Parliament on two policy areas, they need to give their prospective constituents an idea of what they stand for, and how they'd vote.

In the meantime, the sum total of what I've heard and read from the party, their leader and their members (and what is a party if not its leader and members? Their statements are relevant) leads me to the conclusion that they are anti-science, anti-equality and misguided on businesses and the economy.

[JassyRadlett]

peggy, interested in your analysis of why the EU is undemocratic? There are some decent arguments to be made that, post-Lisbon, it's more democratic than the Westminster system.

It doesn't always feel like from here, perhaps, because some of the people we elected to be our MEPs, and thus our voices in the European Parliament alongside our national, (mostly) elected representatives in the Council of Ministers, can't be arsed to do their jobs properly and speak up for our interests.

Someone remind me to which those non-voting, non-participating MEPs belong?

[Icimoi]

its been proven more than once we don't benefit from trading with the EU they benefit more from trading with us we need to renegotiate

Why on earth do you think we would conceivably bother to trade with the EU if we didn't benefit from it? And what do you imagine would happen if we were unable to trade with them? It is idle to imagine that the US would pick up the slack.