worried about DD/DS being molested on plane? plane has more chance of crashing!

[ManfredMann]

www.theotherglassceiling.com/2014/05/sexism-paternalism-flying-high-what-are.html

give the blokes a break !

Agree with Coldlightofday - that's not victim blaming, it's making the best of the imperfect world we live in. It's not like she's saying it's the parents' fault if their children are molested by a stranger!

Anyway, there's a higher percentage of black people in prison in the uk than any other ethnic group relative to the size of its resident population, does that mean you'd ask for your child not to be sat next to a black person because it's worth reducing the tiny risk that they might be a criminal? Would you say that's not discrimination because they're still getting to their destination and it's not like they specifically paid for a seat by a child? Of course not because that would be ridiculous.

And anyone who wants to accuse me of 'victim blaming' when I prepare my daughter for the real world and point out to her that sadly, some people are not nice and not to be trusted.... if I type what I think of you, I will be deleted so I will stick to my Buddhist principles and not say anything if I can't think of anything kind to say.

It's not victim blaming to help vulnerable people to think through (and ideally act out) what to do when they are in difficult circumstances.

I was sexually assaulted when I was about 12 on a sunny Saturday in our local park. I was lucky and managed to escape and ran to a friends house. they were fantastic, took me very seriously, rang the police and made it very very clear that it was in no way my fault. Then they talked to me about what to do if the same thing ever happened again, which was not to be polite, to feel OK about yelling 'get away from me' or 'I don't know you' when there were many people around (I got led off to a quite place from an area full of families). I found that very empowering.

I have a dd of a similar age now and was very happy that both school and Guides have had practical workshops on 'creepy people/situations', and we've had conversations with her too. Of course I've no idea what my dd might do in similar circumstances, but given that she will be flying alone between the UK to Canada this year where she will not be an unaccompanied minor and where we will book her seats to be at the front of the plane and by a window as that's where I always choose. I hope that she'll have an empty seat next to her as that's always nice, but I have no control as to who sits next to her or how they will behave.

If I want to avoid the risk of a nasty experience then I'd not send her. I judge the benefits of visiting family and being independent as greater than the risk of being assaulted on the plane. But then professionally I am a risk manager so I am used to weighing up threats and opportunities. In my experience It's something that most people are very bad at.

If some random person implies that my husband is a predatory paedophile for no other reason than because he is out in public, I think feeling livid is fairly understandable.

Exactly this. Moving your child away because a man (oh the horror) has sat next to them is more likely to give them a complex about men than the tiny chance that he is going to molest them.

Isn't the whole point of an 'unaccompanied minor' that there is no family member on board spero?

As has been said repeatedly on here, we are allowed to worry about/discuss the small risks as well as the big ones (although I completely agree with what you say about the risk of injury from family members).

Oh and according to that piece about surviving accidents what I should really do to protect my child from a remote, but real risk on her flight is to insist that she doesn't have to sit next to someone fat or old just in case they impede her getting to an emergency exit. I doubt very much I'd be taken seriously if I did that.

I think we've all agreed that we need to educate our children how to respond to 'creepy stranger' situations.

But to say

The issue is children not knowing what to do in the unlikely event of someone becoming inappropriate, or simply making them feel uncomfortable.

is blaming the child/parent.

I read that as saying that educating them would be a much more effective way to protect them than not sitting them next to a man. It's a huge leap to go from that to 'it's the parent's fault if they haven't educated them properly/the child panics and doesn't know what to do and they get molested by a stranger,' which yes, would be victim blaming.

'creepy men'

Your words coldlight, not mine.

Give that it's generally a parent deciding that the child might take a flight without them it's also the parent who will be thinking about the potential risks and how to respond to them. So with regard to the molestation issue I think we've agreed it's almost certainly a fairly unlikely event, but concerning.

For some people the unlikelihood is enough to make them simply accept the risk and do nothing more.

Some may wish to change the odds and feel that insisting their child has no contact with men is the way to go about this. The feasibility of this is questionable, and given that the chances are already very low the utility of the response may be fairly small in any case. Some feel that this also creates a secondary risk to both society (men not wishing to interact with children even when they want to offer help to a child that requires it), to individual men and women impacted and also to the individual in question, by making them fearful of 50% of the populace, and possibly too trusting of the other 50%.

Others will feel the risk is too high and not allow their child to fly alone. Either a chaperone will be acquired (might be more risky of course, depending on the motivation of the chaperone), or the flight will not happen. There could be issues with that too.

Others may feel that there is little they can do to affect the risk that their child encounters someone who might behave badly toward them (in any way making their flight experience unpleasant, not just assaulting them) but that they can perhaps help their child develop some contingency plans, which might make the impact of the unpleasantness more manageable. Children who have been taught to be polite to strangers, respect their elders etc may find it very difficult to say no to unwanted advances or requests, so helping them to feel confident about their boundaries can really help. Plus this is a life skill not limited to plane journeys with few obvious downsides.

spero - Someone has posted on this thread about being sexually abused on a plane as an unaccompanied child. And I have read other cases. They have been when passengesr are sleeping and sometimes the man has used a blanket to obscure what he was doing. It might be rare, that does not mean it never happens.

The issue is children not knowing what to do in the unlikely event of someone becoming inappropriate, or simply making them feel uncomfortable.

That's not victim blaming, it's pointing out a problem. It is a problem.

Most kids freeze up. Most kids are afraid to tell because it's someone they know. It's easy enough to tell on a stranger because (in their minds) it's a black and white situation. With a friend/family member, they trust them and when a trusted person says not to tell, there's a good chance they won't tell because they're getting mixed signals that someone of authority that they normally are made to listen to and they trust is telling them to do something they shouldn't do. That's the issue, and because these scumbags are preying on a child's trust its a difficult problem to fix. It's not blaming the kid, it's pointing out that it's hard to catch predators because of this.

But... back to the plane, it's like not allowing your child to swim in the ocean because of sharks. Its so unlikely to get bit by a shark, why even bother? But there are things you can do like not swim in the evening or in dim light when they feed and can't see clearly.

I don't see why you can't do both. Teach kids stranger danger, and sit them next to women who are statistically less likely to prey on them. And, it really isn't that hard to do it quietly by computer without embarrassing any men who would never dream of doing something like that in the first place.

Of course people are allowed to discuss whatever they want. But equally I have the freedom to find it exasperating annoying and potentially harmful.

Because this underscores just how hopeless people are about assessing risk. And how they cling to the illusion of control - if my child doesn't sit next to a MAN, my child will be safe.

And if that illusion of control means a parent doesn't direct their attention to what is truly risky, then this puts a child in real danger. And the sad thing is, the parent did it for the best possible motives.

I think there is a real concern that hysterical paranoid over reactions to every perceived micro risk, such as paedos on planes, impacts to the detriment of parents and children being able to discuss and understand what is really risky and what strategies you can have to mitigate risk.

Victim blaming my absolute arse.

Turdigay - sorry I have been dipping in and out of this thread so may have missed it, but I thought someone posted about being an adult and being sexually assaulted?

I would far rather teach my daughter exactly what she should say and do if some strange adult invited her under a blanket, than teach her to distrust or fear ANY adult male she encounters.

Found this article
After looking at the statistics on sexual abuse of children, Spicer’s argument looks less like a reasoned argument based on data and more like stereotyping men as pedophiles. The columnist does offer an example of a case where a male pedophile interfered with an unaccompanied minor on a plane, however. The case is from 2001 and the American Northwest Airlines paid a sum of 10 million dollars to the child’s family. There is undoubtedly a true concern about the safety of unaccompanied minors because of cases like this. But stereotyping men as possible pedophiles is actually the least effective means of protecting children who are flying alone.

So, any advance on one reported case since 2001?

Spero - You can keep complaining about this as much as you want. But many parents will continue to sit any unaccompanied children by female partners. And minimising risk when it is something so simple to do, makes perfect sense.

female passengers

Thanks for permission to keep complaining.

I will keep on because I think it is important.

Minimising a pretty non existent risk is a waste of time and energy - that could be better diverted into helping parents and children TALK about what is risky and what children can do to help themselves.

This isn't 'victim blaming' this is called empowerment.

And not only do you waste time and energy but you scapegoat an entire gender as potential child molesters! this is appalling discrimination and has led directly to horrible tragedies - the van driver who didn't intervene with the little 2 year old who wandered off from nursery and drowned in a pond. He didn't want people to think he was 'strange' for stopping to help. I am sure there are many other examples of this, but that is the one that always sticks in my mind. She would be alive today if we weren't so keen at hyping up the risk that men are paedophiles.

Spero - But it is largely men who sexually abuse and rape children. That isn't scapegoating, that is a fact.

Yes. That is a fact.

But what proportion of men?

What are you saying about the risk men in general pose? What are your statistics?

Just because the majority of sexual abusers are men, does NOT mean the majority of men are sexual abusers.

My child is far more at risk in the car with me tomorrow than she ever will be from a paedophile. Particularly as I do not have a male partner who lives in my home.

A very sensible post Spero.
Children need to learn to risk assess and strategies to deal with uncomfortable situations. Glossing over it as 'unpleasant' or 'spoiling their innocence' and giving them the blanket view of:
men=danger
women=safe
is likely to put them into danger!

Sadly a man in a car would be terrified of stopping if he saw a lone child crying on the road side. He would also be terrified of helping one if he was on foot in a shopping centre. As a lone woman I could help in both cases and be thanked rather than viewed with suspicion.

Serious question as I'm a man and reading this thread has opened an eye to something I've never considered.

If I see a child in distress, anywhere, should I walk on by and stop the nearest woman?