To Consider Homeopathic Teething Gel Appalling?

[UncleT]

It's being advertised on the telly at the moment. It 'contains' 12c dilutions of herbs. Look up 12c and you'll rapidly find out that this means none of the substance remains in a sample. Other ingredients are water, ethanol, a sweetener and gelling and lubricant agents. There is nothing that will help with teething pain.

[FreudiansSlipper]

the point I was trying to make (though not very clearly) was that what we consider to be fake, not proved and so on changes and we do accept some theories that are unproven often if it agrees with our way of thinking . our way of thinking changes as society changes. it was not that long ago in western culture acupuncture was considered ridiculous but many people have used it and found it to a more successful than what their doctor had prescribed them

there are many people who will tell you that faith heeling has helped them, to them they have the proof that they themselves feel better (as with using homeopathic remedies) who are you, or other people to tell them they are talking rubbish when they themselves have felt the benefits

I have known people who have believed their faith and power of prayer has got them through the most difficult times in their life how can I argue with them (I am an atheist) I have not lived their life

but if you are talking about people who deliberately deceive vulnerable people that is not the same thing, people get deceived in many ways when they are vulnerable

[Minifingers]

Oh come on. 99.999% of the time prayer IS harmless.

As is homoeopathy.

Unfortunately we can't say the same for conventional medicine, which is estimated to kill about 225,000 a year in the US.

Homoeopaths have a duty to inform their clients about the scientific evidence that homoeopathic treatments are ineffective. If people still go ahead and have the treatment on the basis of anecdotal evidence of efficacy (which they generally do) then that's fair enough.

Most people only turn to alternative medicine because conventional medicine, which of course is free at the point of use, has been unhelpful or is unacceptable to them.

Again - nobody is answering my question: what is wrong with a placebo?

[NeedsAsockamnesty]

If I was selling prayer and saying it cured pain and illness then bloody right I would expect to be ridiculed and corrected

[piscivorous]

I'm a great believer in letting people make their own decisions for themselves and, by extension, for their own children. They might not be the decisions I would make but they are entitled to that and they will learn by experience just as I did when my DCs were young. I don't believe any of us should force our views onto anyone else unless the actions of that other person is damaging to others.

NeedsASock If you were selling prayers I would politely disagree with you and would encourage any buyers to seek proper treatment but I would defend your right to offer prayers and theirs to take you up on it. People need to live and let live

[fisherpricephone]

Minifingers well, since all clinical trials compare drugs with placebos, the trouble with placebos are that they less effective than conventional drugs.

I have no issue with free placebos, I regularly kiss my kids' bumps and scrapes better. But charging for homeopathic arnica that does the same job? And being allowed to claim effectiveness when there are no clinical trials showing effectiveness? That's very wrong.

[fisherpricephone]

Minifingers well, since all clinical trials compare drugs with placebos, the trouble with placebos are that they less effective than conventional drugs.

I have no issue with free placebos, I regularly kiss my kids' bumps and scrapes better. But charging for homeopathic arnica that does the same job? And being allowed to claim effectiveness when there are no clinical trials showing effectiveness? That's very wrong.

[Minifingers]

Homeopathic treatments well not be as effective as conventional drugs, but they're also never dangerous and don't have any unpleasant side effects.

Re clinical trials - there are also none showing TENS machines are good for labour analgesia, but many women find them great and helpful. Why shouldn't the manufacturers be able to report this? After all, there is no onus on drug companies to tell all patients about the many trials which find limited or no benefit of commonly prescribed drugs like statins and anti depressants.

[BackOnlyBriefly]

We're not really doing the "conventional medicine kills" are we? It's almost embarrassing.

If 10 people are dying of appendicitis and a surgeon operates and saves nine of them then some people try and say this proves conventional medicine is a bad thing because one died.

Meanwhile the guy selling homoeopathic remedies to the families of those dying is a hero because his cures harmed no one.

As long as everyone is informed of the facts so they can make a proper decision I'm ok with some of you opting out of conventional medicine altogether. We're print out some nice Darwin Award Certificates.

[piscivorous]

Back How rude are you?
On balance I would tend to agree with your point but find that kind of dismissive rudeness very off-putting

[BackOnlyBriefly]

that what we consider to be fake, not proved and so on changes

Not with with homoeopathy it won't because as I keep saying there is no mystery there. We know it doesn't work and there's no room for it to suddenly be proved to be true after all.

It fails on the most important test. People on homoeopathy treatments get better no more often than people who are given some other fake treatment.

We're not talking about a treatment that works when we don't know why. We're talking about a treatment that doesn't work.

[alAswad]

Polkadots I looked that paper up and haven't read it in great detail because I'm tired, but from my understanding of the methods and results sections I'm reminded of this:

xkcd.com/882/

[alAswad]

That is, if you were talking about this one.

[BackOnlyBriefly]

How irresponsible are you? That 225,000 is a stock argument for conspiracy theorists and con artists. When it succeeds in convincing people that conventional medicine is dangerous people go to quacks instead and some of them die

[PolkadotsAndMoonbeams]

alAswad that isn't the one I was talking about, although looking at that I agree with you. The authors also seem to have thought "Let's make this sound confusing and put lots of equations in and people will just read the conclusion". I do love that website you linked.

The one I saw was using Raman and UV/vis spectroscopy to look at long range structure, rather than proposing a mechanism I think. It wasn't what I was after, so I didn't really read it, but something obviously stuck! Probably because I couldn't believe people were getting funding to research homoeopathy I'll have a look for it tomorrow, when I'm not so tired!

[sashh]

but they're also never dangerous and don't have any unpleasant side effects.

I think they are dangerous. If you are delaying medical treatment for your child because you are giving them sugar pills that is dangerous.

If you are relying on homeopathy to prevent you getting malaria on holiday and you are then bitten by a mossie and develop malaria that is harm.

Of course if you then react to a treatment for malaria you will claim conventional medicine is dangerous when in fact if you had taken conventional anti malarials you would have been fine.

[Minifingers]

Sash - credit adults with the good sense to know when conventional treatment is necessary and urgent.

It's rare for this not to be the case.

[Minifingers]

Love the way people choose rare and bizarre examples - like cretins using homeopathy to prevent malaria - as rationale for the total dismissal of homeopathy, which is overwhelmingly turned to by people suffering minor ailments which conventional treatments are either not available for or are ineffectual.

[cardibach]

But Minifingers homeopathy is ineffectual too - it has been proved not to work. What bit of that is hard to understand. It isn't that it works but we don't know why or that it hasn't been proved to work it is that it has been proved not to. Actually, it is still pretty unpleasant when used for minor ailments. A friend of DDs had bouts of tonsillitis regularly when she was at primary school. Her dad insisted on 'treating' it with homeopathy and as a result she was miserably ill for two weeks at a time and missed loads of school when suitable antibiotics would have helped her in 24 hours. Her life was not in jeopardy, but her quality of life certainly was.

[PolkadotsAndMoonbeams]

alAswad, this is it. Admittedly, I didn't realise it was published in a Homeopathy Journal.

[Minifingers]

Cardi - homeopathy works for many people who use it, in the way all placebos do.

And please - can I repeat that most people use homeopathy to treat minor ailments, mostly not serious infections that need antibiotics.

[bruffin]

Minifinger

[bruffin]

Not sure what happened there
Minifinger, by your own admission we are talking about self limiting illnesses that would have resolved by themselves. Homeopathy is doing nothing at all and not "working"

I have seen people post that they have Homeopathy works because they had something like warts, taken a homeopathy cure and 6 weeks later the wart went (I am not exagerating). This has convinced them homeopathy works

[Minifingers]

No - homeopathy makes people who use it feel better. Like prayer. Like faith healing. It has a placebo effect.

This is why people turn to it REPEATEDLY.

[bruffin]

They turn to it repeatedly because they have more money than sense and there are too many charletons waiting to take that money.

[piscivorous]

So what exactly is the problem here? In most cases people make an informed decision to try homeopathy for something either mild and self-limiting or, as a complement to traditional treatment, for symptoms of chronic conditions that are not responding to mainstream treatment alone. Nobody should think they have a right to stop anybody else choosing to do that even if they, personally, think it's rubbish