To say that telling teachers

[Nomama]

...that they are striking for pensions and holidays is fucking insulting?

Would I make it worse to add that if you believe the above is true you really do need to think again about your sources of information?

Could I make it easier to understand by repeating - as many posters have said this on the other threads - we are striking because the Goviots are wrecking your child's education? Whilst doing that they are blowing smoke up your arse by telling you that we, the teachers, are complaining because they are asking us to do a fair days work for a fair days pay etc etc.

Nope, we're not! We want to remind you all, and The Goviot, that we are being hammered by his stupid, ill though out and utterly unsustainable 'good ideas' whilst simultaneously being robbed of our rights to have a say in something we are the experts in. Add to that the fact that we are being financially shafted too and you might get the idea.

But I can honestly say that whilst the headline / legal reason we strike might be pay and conditions the real reason, in our hearts, is the continued dismantling of your kids education.

Sadly that isn't a legal reason to strike! That needs you, as parents to stop being side tracked and swallowing the 'all teachers are lazy bastards' press and to work out that The Goviot is seriously threatening your child's educational development.

Trust me, not all of you have the kids in the top 25%, academically. Most of you have the poor little sods that are being branded as failures because they cannot be 'above average' - only a small knowledge of maths is required to understand the the absolute truth of that point, Mr Gove!

[niceguy2]

But Nomama, that's life and essentially how virtually every part of our economy works.

Companies all compete. Some will thrive, others will fail. It's the competition which helps us innovate and thrive.

I see it to be the same here with schools. If you don't give them a target to strive for or the threat of failure then there's no incentive for them to improve.

I guess it depends on whether you are a carrot or stick person. Personally I think you need both.

A carrot such as performance related pay so good teachers get rewarded. And the stick that if you're not good you get taken over and sacked.

I'm still not seeing the problem unless you are trying to say that it's OK not to even try.

[IamRechargingthankYou]

Hey Nomama and you other MNUTters! Have you thought of moving to Sweden? That sun that shines so brightly out of your arse would certainly help them out during those long winter months...

[Nomama]

niceguy, you are misunderstanding the maths of the situation. We cannot get all kids to achieve above average scores. It is impossible. Statistically, mathematically impossible. It is a target that nobody can meet, an impossible request.

Gove was simply talking bollocks and has refused to back down and admit he got that one wrong.






As for the message below yours... well, there had to be someone didn't there?

[FraidyCat]

But describe that specifically, statistically and then hold us teachers to it is ludicrous. We cannot ever meet that criteria of success. Yet it is what we are measured by, what our salaries and continued employment in no small part depend upon.

My wife works for a bank. Every year 1 in 5 staff have to be given the worst rating (out of 5) in theri annual performance review. Two such ratings and you get sacked. It is ruthless, but (supposedly) works for the employer, as people are always trying to out-do their colleagues.

Perhaps Gove is not mathematically illiterate. Perhaps he is just trying to impose ruthless private sector methods to get people to up their game, if they can.

[niceguy2]

No I'm not misunderstanding. I just think you are focussing on a single sentence he said in a single interview and not looking at the overall intent.

Let's set aside for one moment what you think of his policies and just focus on his goal. His goal is unashamedly to raise standards. I don't think you would disagree with that. What I think you take exception to is the way he's trying to go about it. A subtle but I think important difference.

And one of the targets is to raise the average score which lets face it is pretty shit when you compare it to our Asian competitors. They'll pissing all over us and laughing in our faces. Whilst we're churning out kids that can barely read/write and trying to tell ourselves it's OK, they're churning out kids who are used to a world where you study during the day then go to a super tutor at night and study some more!

So I do support the small but subtle change to the OFSTED system. Ie. the scrapping of satisfactory. Because as a parent I don't want my kids to go to a school which is 'satisfactory'. Satisfactory to me means you're happy to bimble along as you are.

I do support the idea of performance related pay. Pay good teachers more. Sack the crap ones. It's common sense to me and millions of other parents who have this in our normal jobs.

I don't support some of the other ideas such as making the school day longer. So i'm not blindly just being a Goveite.

But as I said earlier. It seems like there isn't a single change that can be suggested that teachers will say "Oooh ok, that's a good idea!"

[niceguy2]

FraidyCat. We have a similar system in our workplace. Our boss MUST give a certain number of ratings out from each. So somebody must get the lowest and somebody must get the highest.

Personally I think it sucks but it's not my manager's fault. This was imposed on him and arguably it's worse for him than me. He has to sit there and decide who out of his high performing team to tell is getting the lowest grade and why. Especially when his personal opinion is that actually we've all done well.

If you don't like this rating policy then it's pretty much tough shit. I'm always welcome to find a job elsewhere. That's pretty much what I've been told.

[teacherwith2kids]

"And one of the targets is to raise the average score which lets face it is pretty shit when you compare it to our Asian competitors."

What source of data are you using for that?

If it is the PISA data, you do know that it is seriously flawed, especially when it comes to China, don't you? Basically, it is from a couple of selected cities, one of which has active policies in place that basically deny all children of non-professional classes, or any poor children at all, to be educated in the city...

And in all countries, a variable percentage - up to 10% - of children aren't included, because they can be labelled as SEN. If the UK says that it has 3% of SEM chil;dren, and anopther country disallows 10% of its children, then much of the % duifference between countries disappears ./ is reversed. tests are also taken under different condirtions, tested children selected in different ways, questions worded in ways that are more common or less common in certauin circumstances, that favour certain curricula and skills above others etc etc,.

[FraidyCat]

Hopefully my previous post was clear, but in case it wasn't: it doesn't matter that the target is mathematically unobtainable. It doesn't matter if substantial numbers of employees eventually drop out (or are kicked out) as a result of impossible targets, as long as there are always fresh recruits to take their place. As long as the system has employees who are doing everything they can think of to out-do their colleagues, the system is getting what it wants.

[Nomama]

I give in.

We are tasked with increasing achievement. Fine. That is a good thing. That is what we are here for.

BUT it has a number attached and that number is to make sure that MOST children achieve ABOVE AVERAGE scores in a wide variety of tests/exams.

THEN we are also tasked with MOST TEACHERS achieving ABOVE AVERAGE in their observations.

Now, tell me how we as a school do that?

It ain't the same as get assessed and Devil take the hindmost. It is financially penalising ALL schools for not meeting impossible demands. I don't want to out do my colleagues, I want to work with them to enable our students to achieve in all subjects. You see, saintly as this sounds to some previous posters, we are not working for ourselves. The vocational aspect of the job means we (most of us) are sincerely student centred and work together for the best outcome for the students.

By the way, these demands are not made of, or at least do not affect the funding for, Academies and Free Schools. Why might that be?

[niceguy2]

OK let me ask this then. Genuinely.

If what is being asked is utterly impossible then of course it is doomed to fail yes? So why don't you just leave it be and let the results be the results.

So if most schools can't reach the above average grade then surely that's more a reflection on govt policy than the individual school. Does that make sense?

With regards to not wanting to outdo your colleagues. Welcome to my world. I don't want to either. I carry on doing my job to the best of my abilities and if my boss sticks me with an unsatisfactory as a result then that's his prerogative and there's nothing I can do. Yes it does affect my pay. I simply wouldn't get a payrise next year and two in a row and I'm out of the door.

[Nomama]

Because it affects the cash we are given as a school. It affects the way parents view us. The reputation... read MNers discussing the shit schools their kids are forced into. All those places that get rated 3 or 4, partly due to not having met daft criteria. We all get extra training and more strict targets too! Maybe a whole new SMT, board of governors and other unnecessary expensive changes.

If we ignore, we to get shuffled out of the door. Capability has been changed so a teacher can get the bums rush very quickly these days.

To be perfectly honest, next year I have been set an impossible task. I know that it is because SMT expect Ofsted in. So we will look as though we are providing an A grade service. Results will come out after the visit, but we will already have our number by then. So SMT will be happy but me and my dept will get shafted because our success rates will be crap.

So I will take a hit, maybe one or two of my staff will get a professional slap, maybe a Capability or 2. But yes, you are right, It is entirely reasonable, normal and what everyone else has to put up with.

Until you remember that we are trying to educate your children! Then, surely, you can see that making is jump through ridiculous hoops is detrimental to that?

But I do think that the length of this thread and the passion with which we are all posting shows that there is something wrong. Not only in teaching.

[BoneyBackJefferson]

niceguy2
"I want them to be above average. In fact ideally at the top of their class. If they are not then I want to know why they aren't and what we can do to fix it."

Are you talking the top of the top class or are you talking about the class that they are in?

What happens if your child has A "SEND" and they are in set 4 or 5?
I want children to be the best that they can be, sometimes that means that when they get a "G" grade in their GCSEs they have done exceptionally well.

I agree with Taylor mali
"I can make a C+ feel like a Congressional Medal of Honour
and an A-­? feel like a slap in the face."

Gove wants all children of whatever ability to be "above average" it is a fallacy.

[Redcliff]

Children should be able to reach their potential - as said above that is not the same as all kids have to have great marks. My son struggles with maths and English and he is deemed average at school. That makes me happy as it means that despite his problems he is still going ok and is not falling behind.

[Nomama]

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/teachers-poem-blasting-michael-gove-and-his-dark-ages-curriculum-hits-a-nerve-on-youtube-9239315.html

Says all of it really.

[Eebahgum]

I love that poem op. And I've just learnt the key difference between aibu and chat. I started a very similar thread over in chat on the same day as you. I had an overwhelmingly positive response from people who are equally scared about the damage Gove is doing to education. Whereas you got shouted down by a group of people who know nothing more than the political tripe they are fed by the media. Shame I don't know how to link to my thread - you might find it interesting reading.

[Misspixietrix]

YNBU OP.

[Nomama]

I did read it I just stayed away it in case my contributing changed the tone of responses you got.

I hope the poet's whole show gets a good airing later in the summer.

[Goblinchild]

Simple solution.
If we are to produce silk purses, we must start with silk.
To produce consistently above average results, we need to start with quality materials in the first place, as most independent schools do
If all children are to be above average, what do we do with the raw materials that fail to be average?
That's where the purse factory just refuses to accept substandard materials, but it's a bit harder when you are talking about children. Can't scrap them, or recycle them.

[Nomama]

You just put me in mind of an old film, Goblinchild

Soylent Green

[missymarmite]

Yanbu. Not for striking, even were it only for pay and conditions. And anyone with any sense who knows a teacher personally should be aware that pay and conditions is just the straw that broke the camels back. There is a lot more behind this, there is a lot of anger, frustration and hurt. Even staunch Tory supporters in the profession have been turned off the party because their policies ( barring one or two) are crazy, backwards and plain foolishness.