To say that telling teachers

[Nomama]

...that they are striking for pensions and holidays is fucking insulting?

Would I make it worse to add that if you believe the above is true you really do need to think again about your sources of information?

Could I make it easier to understand by repeating - as many posters have said this on the other threads - we are striking because the Goviots are wrecking your child's education? Whilst doing that they are blowing smoke up your arse by telling you that we, the teachers, are complaining because they are asking us to do a fair days work for a fair days pay etc etc.

Nope, we're not! We want to remind you all, and The Goviot, that we are being hammered by his stupid, ill though out and utterly unsustainable 'good ideas' whilst simultaneously being robbed of our rights to have a say in something we are the experts in. Add to that the fact that we are being financially shafted too and you might get the idea.

But I can honestly say that whilst the headline / legal reason we strike might be pay and conditions the real reason, in our hearts, is the continued dismantling of your kids education.

Sadly that isn't a legal reason to strike! That needs you, as parents to stop being side tracked and swallowing the 'all teachers are lazy bastards' press and to work out that The Goviot is seriously threatening your child's educational development.

Trust me, not all of you have the kids in the top 25%, academically. Most of you have the poor little sods that are being branded as failures because they cannot be 'above average' - only a small knowledge of maths is required to understand the the absolute truth of that point, Mr Gove!

[ephemeralfairy]

Quite right bochead. No-one goes into teaching for the pay, let's face it. In my opinion it's a vocation and it takes a very special sort of person to do it and be good at it. My mum is a teacher, DP is a teacher, the vast majority of my friends are teachers. I have never entertained the idea for myself because I know I don't have the right temperament and I would be shit at it. (Instead I work another public sector field which is also being cut to fuck but that's a whole other thread...!) I know that isn't particularly relevant but knowing first-hand how hard most teachers really do work and how much they bloody care just makes me feel a bit sad when I see how much bashing they come in for.

[RoadKillBunny]

The people who teach at my children's school work so hard and give so much of their time and themselves to the children in their care.
Every day more and more is torn away. The goal posts move again and again. They are left trying to second guess what might be coming next and how they can deal with that while still giving the highest quality of education to our children. I honestly don't know how they do it.
The biggest frustrations I have with the teachers at my children's school is that while they are fully behind strike action they have only once gone out on strike themselves as they wish to give the best to the children and disrupt our children and us as parents as little as possible.
I wish they would strike more. One or two days of strike action to try and secure lifetimes of good education for mine and everybody else's children. I feel it is very very worth it.

I have a child with SN and we have suffered so much trying to just get the resources to allow him to access his education. We have secured funding only for it to be withdrawn just a few months later in the next round of cuts. School have paid out of their own funds again and again but it's just not sustainable. We are a small school in a well to do area. Our budgets have been cut over and over again and now the SEN needs of the children at the school are struggling to be met due to short sighted, one size fits all policies that have no base in reality.

I hate this teacher bashing mentality that the government and media have fostered and encouraged. It helps nobody and harms the education of our children.
If I hear one more person compare the teachers strike and the term time holiday rules I think I might lose my mind.
The two have no relation to each other, they are not at all related or connected!
Every time I hear or read somebody spout off about 'one rule for them another for us' it just confirms to me that the government are attempting (and succeeding!) to control the people by use of the press. In the same way that they have vilified benefit recipients to allow them to cut away at the most vulnerable in society they are also hacking away at our children's education by diverting attention to those terrible greedy lazy teachers.

[WutheringTights]

TopHorn I have enormous sympathy with your post and I honestly don't think that teachers are lazy, crap, whatever. I couldn't teach. However, I do think that you describe the working life of most professionals these days. I am a reasonably senior professional in business and you just described my work and home life. Add to that calls with the US at very late o'clock and having to get up to do a call with Australia at the crack of dawn the next day. I also love my actual job but despair at the ever increasing admin load.

I'm not saying that it's right or fair but I do think that sometimes all professionals suffer from grass is always greener syndrome. Please make sure that you're not jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.

[tasteslikechicken]

boneyback, thanks for your editing and summarising skills. Oh and thanks for the shame as well, always a pleasure to be on receipt of such condescending nonsense.
I was not belittling the OP's profession, I was pointing out that more often than not when I read or hear someone describing themselves, or worse, their entire profession as experts they tend to be from a teaching background.
That is not the same as any suggestion that I might be saying all teachers behave like this. I actually wince on behalf of those competent and skilled teachers I know when I read this nonsense.

There is no value in declaring what I do. I think you're making a tiresome point which conflates the individual and the sector they work in.

I did also make the point that teachers have little or no formal training in children's emotional development, sadly that didn't make your edit. I assume because it is a valid point but didn't fit with the argument you wanted to put forward. Never mind, eh. Don't let the facts get in the way and all that.

The OP posted to invite responses, I gave mine.
It is supremely arrogant to come onto this site which is, in my experience, informed and informative, and describe yourself as an expert.
Anyone who describes themselves as such in fact reveals they are the very opposite by dint of their assertion.

OP confuses qualification and expertise. I have a driving licence, but I'm no Formula 1 driver.

[hootloop]

I was a teacher before I had the children, I fully support the strike but it is too little too late the job isn't the one I trained for anymore.
I am desperately sad to be looking to return to work in another career, teaching was all I ever wanted to do but even in the 11 years since I trained it is unrecognisable, I didn't sign up for that.

[niceguy2]

Yep Wuthering, i agree with you. I've been reorganised into a global team so often am up early and taking calls late. I get called on my days off and I long stopped even attempting to read all my emails as that in itself could be a full time job.

My neighbour is in a totally different industry and his worklife balance seems even worse than mine.

And I've now had to start a sideline business up in order to combat the effects of having no payrise for the last 5 years (unless you count the 0.5% rise I had this year as a rise). It also helps having another income stream as it makes me feel slightly better that if I lost my main job that we wouldn't totally starve.

The grass isn't greener....not by a long shot.

[Nomama]

It has been an interesting read and I can see that there will always be 2 very firmly entrenched points of view.

But it is sad, from my perspective, that some people/parents see us educators in such a harsh light. Many of the complaints against us are out of our control and are often fanned by frankly dishonest media reportage.

So I suppose I can answer my own questions now:

Yes
Yes
No

[BoneyBackJefferson]

tasteslikechicken

You are quite welcome and you are welcome to your opinion, as I am to mine. You consider my view condescending, I consider yours belittling.

As to why I asked what you did, its because you are attacking a profession or professional, why shouldn't they have a right to reply or to know exactly where you are coming from.

As for the editing it shows your bias towards teachers, you may not like it being pointed out but its there.

[Nomama]

^It is supremely arrogant to come onto this site which is, in my experience, informed and informative, and describe yourself as an expert.
Anyone who describes themselves as such in fact reveals they are the very opposite by dint of their assertion. ^

I'm calm enough to deal with this now.....

Why is it arrogant to assert that I am expert in the career I have trained for, have subject and vocational degrees in, have worked in for many years, continually improve and extend both my subject knowledge and my practice skills and am continually monitored and assessed by other professional observers?

Your driving license: formula 1 analogy fails spectacularly on many levels.

I AM expert in my field, and growing ever more so by dint of hard work, education and experience. Many other people in many other jobs can claim the same - for example, my next door neighbour is an expert in tree surgery, claims to be so and indeed is!

I can only read into your rather odd assertion that you have a chip on your shoulder that leads you to be rather negative about people with knowledge.

[GreenLandsOfHome]

Niceguy sums it up perfectly.

What do teachers WANT? I'm an intelligent, well-read individual. I have no idea what the most recent strike was about or what it hoped to achieve.

You know what gets people's backs up regarding teachers? Because every one of them moans about taking work home, finishing at 6pm, the stress, the workload, the paperwork.

Well whoop-de-fucking-do. Golf clap for you lot. It's what the rest of us do.

Do you really expect to receive sympathy when you moan about the 'extras' you do that for many of us just come as standard?

[niceguy2]

To add to the confusion remember the initial post was:

To say that telling teachers...that they are striking for pensions and holidays is fucking insulting?

But I can honestly say that whilst the headline / legal reason we strike might be pay and conditions the real reason, in our hearts, is the continued dismantling of your kids education.

So forgive me for assuming you are striking for pay, pensions & holidays since that's the official reason you've given!

As I said before if it's for another reason then the union's have done a piss poor job of explaining themselves. Because most of us are thinking it's cos you don't like your pension.

[Nomama]

Another one who hasn't read it all.

Nope, not going to repeat myself, or the others here who have outlined the lies, restrictions and real feelings.

Never mind. The nasty picture painted by the media is far more appealing and hate worthy. It completely distracts you from some of the most audacious thefts you and your children have ever encountered. Specifically qualified teachers and a meaningful curriculum.

Just remember, the people you so publicly revile are the people working very hard to educate your kids, in spite of the political corruption of the education system and despite your incredibly low opinion of us.

[Nomama]

Pensions and T+Cs are part of it, yes. But not the heart of it. Others here have posted the same.

We cannot legally strike to protest the system we work in. We can legally strike for our T+Cs.

We do have 2 arguments going on, the unions deal with one of them.

We are screaming about the other. That is NOT WAVING, DROWNING desperately trying to get a meaningful spotlight cast upon the political maneuvering that is very quickly dismantling the education system and replacing it with what is likely to become a wholly privatised one. As with the NHS, this is being done via stealth and lots of misdirection.

Which is why I asked the 3 questions that I did.

[niceguy2]

Well until this thread it never occurred to me at all that you were striking for any other reason.

And I consider myself fairly well read. So God only knows what the average man/woman on the street thinks.

[GreenLandsOfHome]

Never mind. The nasty picture painted by the media is far more appealing and hate worthy

It is actual teachers I have seen who do a good job of alienating other working adults, not the media. As in, from the horses mouth, on here, on Facebook, in real life.

I do not for one minute believe that all teachers are only worried about the children, with no personal motivations. Nor should they be.

I actually have huge respect for teachers. It's a hard job, I get it. I just believe that teachers are normal, working adults, doing a difficult but manageable job.

It's not rocket science. It's not brain surgery. You're not being sent down the mines.

Teachers are people, not saints. And I'll treat them like people...and not like saints.

[TillyTellTale]

Most of you have the poor little sods that are being branded as failures because they cannot be 'above average' - only a small knowledge of maths is required to understand the the absolute truth of that point, Mr Gove!

YABU to think Gove has that much maths.

He actually does think it is possible for all children to be above average!

Q97 Chair: Secretary of State, we are moving to a novel, new section: quick fire questions and answers, inspired by the Twitter feed #askgove-5,000-plus wanting to interact with you. So we are going to go round each of us in fairly strict timing. If you could give us quick answers, that would be great.

Michael Gove: I will try my best.

Q98 Chair: One is: if "good" requires pupil performance to exceed the national average, and if all schools must be good, how is this mathematically possible?

Michael Gove: By getting better all the time.

Q99 Chair: So it is possible, is it?

Michael Gove: It is possible to get better all the time.

Q100 Chair: Were you better at literacy than numeracy, Secretary of State?

Michael Gove: I cannot remember.

link 1

House of Commons transcript

[BoomBoomsCousin]

Teachers as a profession have done an exeedingly poor job of naking themsleves an effective force in education policy. They just haven't been any good at it. And if there really are so many that think that striking, especially striking in a manner that precludes actually talking about the issue, is a good way to try and change policy for the better, it's hardly surprising. IT isn't as though you've had a clear voice on these other issues that your hearts bleed for. As a group you've been mumbling in the shadows and occassionally throwing your toys out of the pram.

If you want to have more of a say in education policy you have to start being less negative and start being more positive about what should happen, backed up by results and set to meet the percieved needs of either the government or the general public. Since they lost their political capital (along with most unions) in the 80s teachers could easily have set up a professional body pushing standards and leading the way in championing school based education and researching educational development. But they haven't. In fact teachers as a group have done almost nothing to improve standards off their own bat and much of the communication the general public see from teachers is a form of self-indulgent misery porn. It's true that lots of other professions have done similar, the police for example, but it hasn't been successful for them either.

If you want to be policy influencers through the general public (rather than through direct lobbying) you need to be more than good at formulating policy (though that would be a good place to start, which policies are you actually proposing should be adopted?), you need to be very, very good at communication - it is a prerequisite. Stamping your feet saying we're striking for something other than what we're telling you about is not being good at communication. And even if you could do so, striking over policy that isn't clear and either urgent or a matter of survival is unlikely to be effective in changing people's minds.

[niceguy2]

Tillytale

I can see Gove's logic on this one. I always tell my kids that I don't accept them being average at school. Don't come home and tell me why you are average.

I want them to be above average. In fact ideally at the top of their class. If they are not then I want to know why they aren't and what we can do to fix it.

I simply cannot see how any caring parent should think that being average is a good thing in today's workplace. And what does that teach your children?

So in that sort of context I fully support any education minister who wants to raise standards. We should be pushing upwards all the time. Unless you tell me that we have the perfect system right now then doing nothing simply isn't an option.

[rumbelina]

Alisvolatpropiis Wed 26-Mar-14 21:20:32
Yanbu.

Half the reason parents are kicking off about the strikes is because they view teachers as child care providers not educators.

----

Agreed. It dismays me that so many people completely misunderstand the principles behind and importance of strikes but that's a whole other thread.

[TillyTellTale]

So, niceguy can you answer the question?

"If "good" requires pupil performance to exceed the national average, and if all schools must be good, how is this mathematically possible?"

[niceguy2]

It's a stupid question.

Average by it's very definition means some will be above and some will be below. I get that. And yes not all schools will be able to be good. I accept that too.

But does that mean we simply should give up and not bother?

Using my analogy earlier, should I be saying to my kids that it doesn't matter how they do because some will always be above and some below average.

Instead I'd rather concentrate on getting my kids well above average. The best they can possibly be.

I don't see why schools cannot do the same. Why some should simply accept that they are not good and that it's OK. Because it's not.

[Nomama]

Give up Tilly.

That basic misunderstanding is part of the problem.

We are talking maths, others are talking emotions, hopes and dreams. It is part of the bigger problem. Average is now an insult rather than a statistical expression on what is 'usual'.

[Nomama]

niceguy, there is an inherent contradiction in your post. Yes, we are all trying to help each kid achieve the very best they can be.

But describe that specifically, statistically and then hold us teachers to it is ludicrous. We cannot ever meet that criteria of success. Yet it is what we are measured by, what our salaries and continued employment in no small part depend upon.

Does that help you understand why we are angry, defeated, whinging, misery porn addicted moaners?

[nutcasenan]

Do any of you caring parents really want an exhausted seventy year old to be responsible for your lively primary school children? That is what that idiot Gove wants. But then he is basing his ideas not on real understanding of teaching but idealised memories of his academic education. You know the scenario "when I was at school.....in my day"...Well Mr Gove, your idea of policing schools with unqualified, and I suppose cheaper, teachers is an insult to those precious children upon which this country's future depends. Education on the cheap promoted by the most inadequate and egotistical Education Minister in living memory. Anyone agree?

[TillyTellTale]

niceguy

It's not a stupid question. Gove didn't understand it. Because he is beyond incompetent.

A man who cannot manage to say something like "it is not mathematically possible, but I would like the national average to mean a higher level of achievement than it does now" should not be our Secretary of State for Education. Not only is he in theoretically in charge of education, which naturally includes mathematics (and his ideas about maths are rather... odd), but he does not have the knowledge to interpret the data upon which decision are made. He simply doesn't have the skills set.