Mother who killed her 3 children visited 50 times by social services (Upsetting content).

[InsanityandBeyond]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2544146/Children-kept-horrific-conditions-drowned-pregnant-mother-visited-social-workers-FIFTY-times-council-failed-act.html

Controversial question but should fathers in this situation be prosecuted for child neglect as they have left their children in these situations. Shouldn't they be be responsible in ensuring their children are not at risk of harm even from their own mothers?

Incidents like this seem to be becoming more common. What should be done if families like this 'refuse' to engage with SS? Shouldn't the children's welfare come before the mother's rights? A similar case is this:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2424335/Amanda-Hutton-starved-son-death-claimed-child-be...

Horrifying .

[caruthers]

Where's your proof that he was abusive MadIsTheNewNormal ?

Being stabbed himself he could disagree with you of course.

[Spero]

She stabbed in him the chest? then there is a clear risk that she intended to kill him.

I don't think you should leave children with ANYONE who is prepared to stab someone in the chest, unless it is done to try to protect yourself or another from imminent attack.

[fifi669]

If that's at my post.... Yes because he said he was leaving. She had put up with numerous affairs etc and flipped that it was him leaving her I think. No excuse and I would have been straight to the police. In this case the police gave her a caution as ex wouldn't provide evidence. A caution for attempted murder!

The father may not have been the best dad, when they were together he must have been involved in biscuit/buggy gate. To hold him responsible for her killing their children, in any way is outrageous. The police knew she'd stabbed him the night before but didn't feel the children needed to be removed. Her family and friends didn't intervene. They'd only been separated 2 weeks. No matter how she shouted at him who could imagine their ex doing that to their own children?

[monicalewinski]

Completely regardless of the stabbing, and whilst I clearly realise that the mother was the actual murderer - I still maintain that the father must shoulder some blame. He knew his children were not being cared for properly, because he was complicit in it.

The first 3 paragraphs of bochead's post at 01:01 sums up for me exactly why he is not without responsibility.

[Doasbedoneby]

If the father had left with the children what would have happened?
Would the social services have been ok with that?

If he'd stayed would we be looking at five deaths now?

If the father had left with the children and the mother had still committed suicide would he have been branded a murderer?



"The serious case review described Miss Anderson and Mr McLelland as an “avoidant family” and there had been concerns over the neglect of their children.
They regularly missed appointments designed to help them, with Miss Anderson refusing offers of support.
But the report, added Mr McLelland, was more consistent in his approach to the care of the children and he had tried to convince Miss Anderson to have a mental health assessment.
The report also said the deaths of Miss Anderson and her children were “completely unexpected”.
Mr Worobec said: “The deaths were unexpected by everybody, by their family and friends."

[MadIsTheNewNormal]

I did not say he was abusive caruthers I am just referring generally to other men who have been in similar situations who have been terrible, irresponsible, absent, flaky, dysfunctional and sometimes abusive partners and fathers and yet who manage to play the victim beautifully when their children end up dead. They cry 'how could this have happened? How did nobody notice that my child was neglected, starved, and in grave danger? Someone in authority must take the blame and be punished.' And it seems that that someone must be anyone but them.

Having said that, I don't have any sympathy for her either. I certainly do not blame him for what she did. I just don't think he's in a position to complain that other people did nothing to protect his children.

If he was a decent, caring, responsible father he would have seen long ago that she was not a great candidate for repeated pregnancies resulting in more children. These stories are always so depressing and so predictable.

[thecatfromjapan]

I thought it unfortunate that midwives and social workers (and someone who reported them anonymously, presumably a friend or relative) had concerns but were absolutely hampered by the evidence/legal right to intervene conundrum.

I read a poster saying that SW and midwives raised concerns about development and weight - but the report also makes clear that they were then asked to prove this - and official experts (such as paediatricians) would state there was no clear cause for concerns: development and weight being within the normal banding. The report also makes clear how very dogged those with concerns were: a midwife insisted another paedeatrician be consulted.

Again, SW were concerned about stimulation, feeding and general care. The Children's Centre gave evidence that they saw the children and mother often, and that they appeared well fed, well clothed and played happily.

The SW made efforts to support the mother/parents in their parenting: the nursery place, for example, wasn't taken up.

It's all very, very, very sad. I absolutely agree with Spero that this sort of thing comes from a place of suffering and pain. But I can see no way you can blame Social Services' role in this.

They really do a hard job, with not nearly enough money and public support.

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

I think there was a key red flag though when she'd stabbed her partner the night before. With the benefit of hindsight that's something to look at to see if lessons can be learned?

[horsetowater]

I think the police are at fault here because they did not immediately remove the children from the mother after she stabbed her partner.

This has happened in other cases as in Baby P. The file that could have convicted Baby P's mother sat on an officer's desk for 6 months and then became invalid.

I do wonder what made Fiona stab her partner.

[Spero]

But I thought no one told the police at the time she had stabbed him? He telephoned her from hospital and told her to hide the knife and lie about it?

[Poppiesway]

local paper reports

I agree with spero. Fiona had previously been know to have mental health issues before children when she lived in Scotland, she was clearly not coping with the children and yet he was not around to help. He was away with his ow.

Yes she killed her children and there are no excuses for that, and particularly in the way she did it was horrific, but the father knew what was going on and he left them children with her to be with someone else and play happy families with her instead of the family he had already created.

Both of their families could have stood in and helped them out, but for some reasons or another this didn't happen. The father was unemployed and had time we assume to be helping in their care.

It is a tragedy which should never have happened.
So many different departments not talking to each other and intervening when they should have.. But with rules and regulations as they are there's so many procedures and evidence needed that things do not always happen as they should or in time to help those that need it.

[Goldenbear]

Why can't the social services focus their attention/ resouces on the socially deprived areas where most child deaths arise? It is clear that there is a strong correlation, so why not use limited resources to give these children a chance of breaking this 'shitty' cycle.

Whenever I go to two particular supermarkets, I pretty much always witness really bad parental skills, emotional abuse, sometimes physical. This is why I don't go to these places- it is depressing and I could well see how these aggressive mothers end up like Fiona. It does take extensive investigative skills to realise that they are breaking the law in the treatment of their children.

[Goldenbear]

Oh and these supermarkets are both in the deprived parts of town.

[bochead]

My own life experiences mean that there are very few occasions when I'll have any sympathy whatsoever for SW's as I think the current CP system is corrupt to the core and filled with incompetents.

However in this case only I'm willing to accept that SS did what they could, with limited resources (hence using a student for home visits) and had to deal with an extended family that lied at every opportunity.

I tried putting myself in the father's shoes. I cannot imagine leaving my child in the home of someone who'd stabbed me - the courts would HAVE to throw the book at me & imprison me , before I'd leave my child in that kind of danger!. Romancing a new partner would be the LAST thing on my mind.

If the law is proving itself to be an ass then you do what you gotta do in order to protect your child! No sympathy for dear Daddy at all. The eldest child had been neglected since birth, the authorities had taken it so clearly that SS did go to court (they failed in their attempt to remove the child). Baby P's father got himself into trouble with the authorities in his efforts to protect HIS child, he was the victim of the most terrible injustice. the father in this case is just a deadbeat.

Nowadays 90% of men get parental responsibility for their children, too few seem to understand the concept of "responsibility". The culture that assumes women have SOLE responsibility for children's welfare and that grown men are just helpless little boys needs to die a swift death, or cases like this will be repeated.

In my eyes the father should be facing criminal charges for lying to the police about the stabbing. Had he told the truth & stepped up the mother could have been sectioned for treatment and several lives saved. He might have been asked to prioritise the day to day care of his kids over his new romance though, and that wouldn't have been convenient for him would it?

Most Dads would have regarded the first court outing as a major wake up call and done their utmost to be the best father ever from then on in. This man kept on impregnating a mentally ill woman and he failed his defenceless kids, not just in the last fatal week, but for years leading up to the final horror. He's a very selfish individual, and I'm not falling for his attempts to point the finger of blame elsewhere instead of looking in the mirror.

[BoneyBackJefferson]

"In my eyes the father should be facing criminal charges for lying to the police about the stabbing"

Do you think this about all victims of DV that don't report?

[bochead]

He was an adult and made the wrong call entirely when he LIED to the police- he needs to own that. Lying to the police is of itself an offence.

We are discussing a FATHER - who has the audacity to criticise the authorities for HIS neglect and mistreatment of HIS children over a number of years.

The authorities could have been judged as failing his children had he told the truth and informed the police that his ex-partner and mother of his children was dangerous and violent. A stabbing is not a minor incident. He had to go to hospital.

The police would then have been able to use that knowledge to section the mother for 28 days under the MH act, and ensure the children were somewhere safe. He himself could have changed the nappies instead of chasing new skirt for a period of time. He chose once too often to place his own kids at the bottom of his priority list.

DV is a complex issue, so is CP. Any parent worth their salt would prioritise getting their children to a safe haven.

[BoneyBackJefferson]

and you think that he (as someone that suffered DV) was completely level headed with no MH issues?

And again many victims of DV LIE to the police, should they (in your opinion) be arrested as well?

[Lioninthesun]

Such a sad story.
I do wonder if Hemming reads these stories currently in the news where the parents have believed SW to be 'evil' and have barred entry or been obstructive to them (his advice to all parents) and wonders if he is responsible.

I see him and his cronies as the underlying problem here. Media printing their waffle adds weight and we get a surge of mothers/fathers killing their kids. The fear seems to coincide worryingly with their appearances on TV/Radio and in the press.

[bochead]

If he was completely level headed he wouldn't have knocked her up like clockwork on annual basis. It's fairly obvious dear Daddy was at the end of the line when they were giving out common sense.

As a parent he had a duty of care to his own flesh and blood, and he failed his children, not just over one incident, but on a consistent basis for several years. That is the KEY reason I cannot for the life of me understand why you keep choosing to paint him as a complete victim Boneybackjefferson. These children were neglected for YEARS before the mother became so violent.

Do I have any sympathy whatsoever for the father of these poor children in this case- NO. All my sympathy is reserved for the innocent children in this case.

I have a minimal amount of sympathy however for the student social worker in this case. (Never thought I'd be someone who'd say that!). It'll be interesting to see whether she pursues a career in CP after this, or changes direction. Her nightmares will last for years whatever she decides. I also feel for those adults who have to wash and organise the burial of those tiny children.

For once this tragedy isn't the "gubberment's fault".

[Sharaluck]

The main problem I see with the whole situation is that the parents were both paranoid and alienated from ss and other children services.

That is the the main problem and tbh I think the issues of neglect (which were not serious initially) could have been dealt with and sorted out if a sw or family support worker could have gained their trust somehow. I think targeting the father in particular would have been a good start as he did interact well with the children and did attend some meetings etc so was not as alienated as Fiona. If a sw could have gained his trust then this would have in turned helped to get Fiona the mental health care she obviously needed. It also might have been useful in terms of educating him on contraceptive etc as having a child a year for several years is enough to break even the most healthy/happy families.

I was also to read of the very early cp meetingsinvolving the first unborn child. I think this was a complete overreaction considering the evidence given and can understand how 2 young parents could also see this as an over reaction+persecution+attempt to child snatch. What a great way to start off a lifetime of suspicion of ss .

What about some positive family outreach programs targeting young parents and parents with little support right from the start? Is there no funding for this?

[Lioninthesun]

There is no funding for the systems already in place as I understand it; hence the over burdened caseloads of SWs all over the country. Certain MP's could be using their position in Westminster to change this, but they want to break the system down to rubble instead. They don't appear to have an alternative.

[Goldenbear]

How was it an overreaction - surely they have, very unfortunately, been proven right about their misgivings? Ultimately, the law has to be much more favourable to children than adults for things to change in this country. These children might of had a hope in hell if that was the case as it is the treading on eggshells that continues and misguided ideas abound of these people ever being able to have been good enough parents. Killing your own three children is very extreme behaviour, do you think that this 'mother' did this act in response to her position as a parent- I think that is a very naive perspective and the unbalanced idividual, capable of such violence, unfortunately existed way before the birth of any of the children. The tragedy is that these innocent souls had to bear the brunt of that mindset!

[Sharaluck]

Yes it was an overreaction! The evidence was that Fiona had reported a low mood and was not attending prenatal appointments.

I can imagine attending formal cp meetings would be very intimidating.

Why not more attempts of informal visits/meetings, bringing in extended family, linking parents with other local parents to be?

Instead they had formal meetings at 8 months pregnant to begin proceedings to remove unborn child

[Poppiesway]

Bochead, It's also the people who have to do forensics on those children to discover cause of death, not just the funeral people. Things stay with people for a long time.

I have to wonder how such a high priority case was given to a student sw. I have a friend who trained within the department and eventually worked for them around 3 years ago, they cannot understand how a student was left to deal with that case. From what I know the cp team have recently been changed (in past 18mths) and sw were moved to different positions and places of work, in effect reducing staff on cp team. It's situations like that when things get missed and cases not discussed as they should be.. Lost in the system so to speak.

While the mother was pregnant an alert would have been on the unborn baby but the cp staff within the hospital would not have been able to deal with the other children just the unborn baby. However the cp team within the hospital will have had meetings with the social workers and raised their concerns but things just do not get actioned in time.

[BoneyBackJefferson]

bochead
"If he was completely level headed he wouldn't have knocked her up like clockwork on annual basis. It's fairly obvious dear Daddy was at the end of the line when they were giving out common sense."

And yet mummy also lacked the sense to take precautions.

"As a parent he had a duty of care to his own flesh and blood, and he failed his children, not just over one incident, but on a consistent basis for several years. That is the KEY reason I cannot for the life of me understand why you keep choosing to paint him as a complete victim "

If he was abused for the length of the relationship, controlled and manipulated then why shouldn't he be seen as a victim?

You and others are quite happy to take in all circumstances for the mother and try and relieve her of some of the blame, yet the father should be examined in complete isolation, no MH problems, no sufferer of DV, no emotional abuse. Just that he should have done more, yes he could have done more but what it really boils down to is that "mummy" killed the children and even thought reports said that the deaths where completely unexpected, somehow this man is still to blame.