Mother who killed her 3 children visited 50 times by social services (Upsetting content).

[InsanityandBeyond]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2544146/Children-kept-horrific-conditions-drowned-pregnant-mother-visited-social-workers-FIFTY-times-council-failed-act.html

Controversial question but should fathers in this situation be prosecuted for child neglect as they have left their children in these situations. Shouldn't they be be responsible in ensuring their children are not at risk of harm even from their own mothers?

Incidents like this seem to be becoming more common. What should be done if families like this 'refuse' to engage with SS? Shouldn't the children's welfare come before the mother's rights? A similar case is this:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2424335/Amanda-Hutton-starved-son-death-claimed-child-be...

Horrifying .

[Spero]

He shares the blame.

No one is wholly to blame.

Why on earth is it crass and insensitive to say that a father should act to protect his children when he knows full well they are living with someone sufficiently mentally unstable to stab him!

I am afraid I have very little sympathy. As others have said, perhaps he could have investigated contraception rather than impregnating this mother every year. It was clear there were concerns after the birth of the first child.

[Birdsgottafly]

"He is complicit in the deaths of his children, "

He simply didn't want his children to go into care and possibly adoption, so didn't tell the truth.

Many families are put in that position (I have been), I think what the SCR has highlighted is correct, there needs to be a better recognition of building family relationships and recognising the fear of adoption.

Individual SW's still have to much power and the compliant systems don't work.

The children may have been murdered at a later date, they may have been safe that night.

I only question his need to share that he is in another "relationship" so soon, but that is what he has got to live with.

[Spero]

'He simply didn't want his children to go into care'.

so leaving them with this mother when he knew or ought to have known that she was very far from coping well for YEARS is an ok response?

anything is better than being in care, including being strapped in your pushchair and fed only biscuits for days at a time?

the Conspiracy Theorists have done their work well. I had hoped Lianne Smith was a rare tragedy but possibly it won't be.

[Birdsgottafly]

"when he knows full well they are living with someone sufficiently mentally unstable to stab him!"

This is how some people live, so to others it is shocking, but to some, physical fights, even with weapons are not unusual.

[gordyslovesheep]

so do women who's children are killed by controlling men during access visits also share the blame?

[caruthers]

You're just filling in gaps that don't exist Spero.

Referring to him as "Complicit" is vile isn't it?

As for the contraception remark it's beyond the pale.

The children were killed by a mother who had mental health problems and showed signs of emotional abuse and physical abuse towards him, and still you decide he's culpable?

[InsanityandBeyond]

Spero my thoughts exactly.

I find it horrifying though that most of these recent horrific cases (including Mikaeel Kular) had SS involvement and the DC were left/returned to the parent. SS are not directly responsible for the deaths no, but vulnerable children need advocates who will ensure their safety and act if there is the slightest reasonable doubt that it is compromised. If their own parents or wider family won't do that then who will if not SS?

[Doyouthinktheysaurus]

I agree wholeheartedly with gordy.

I do feel a bit frustrated at times with the general acceptance by some that a mum that kills her children must be mentally ill, but a dad who does the same is evil and intent on revenge.

[Spero]

If a woman's children are killed by a man on a contact visit which has been ordered by the court then of course she is not to blame.

She has no choice. A court has made an order and she will be punished if she doesn't obey.

But this is a man who knew his partner wasn't stable. He knew professionals had concerns. Even if being stabbed was an every day occurrence to him, surely he would think that his children not being fed or played with wasn't ok?

I am astonished anyone could make excuses for this man. He is about as far away as a mother being forced to comply with a court order as you can get.

[Spero]

He is complicit. He knew things were wrong and he lied about them. If he didn't think getting stabbed was such a big deal, why lie to the police about it.

And yes, he should have used a condom. When you are struggling with one child, adding a new one to the mix year after year, is incredibly stupid.

[InsanityandBeyond]

He is culpable Caruthers. She stabbed him, obviously not being of sound mind at that point, he left helpless DC with her. Unforgivable IMO.

[caruthers]

There is nothing to defend.

He may very well have been a poor father but he didn't kill his children.

Some posters on here have highlighted the different way child killers are treated and it's astounding.

[Spero]

o and btw I do not say that men who kill children = evil bastards but women who kill children = abused victims.

ANYONE who kills their own child, who was looking to them for protection and love, is clearly someone with massive, massive issues. I doubt very much those issues stem from simply Being Evil; I am sure environment, personality and day to day experiences all play a role.

[Birdsgottafly]

"so leaving them with this mother when he knew or ought to have known that she was very far from coping well for YEARS is an ok response?"

He hadn't left them, SS and the courts have, everything was reported, they knew what was happening in that house.

Once your children are on a CP plan, you cannot just take them, he couldn't anyway, he had no accommodation and probably (like a lot of these Dad's) couldn't of cared for them.

It was either removal or try to work with the family, sadly the children have been killed (like about four others that week).

If they had of been removed and the Mother sectioned, the DM would be condemning SS, Even more if she had of needed to have a Caesarian applied for.

[Spero]

He left his children in a massively unsafe situation. Not only did he fail to act, he failed to co-operate with anyone who might have helped.

No, he didn't wield the knife that killed them. but he is complicit. He ought to take responsibility, not attempt to shift it onto the very agencies he lied to.

[caruthers]

You are making plenty of excuses to distance women of fault if their ex partners kill the children though Spero.

[gordyslovesheep]

I didn't mention court orders Spero - just plain old access - my ex has access with my 3 kids - no court involved. As with most couples

Being a feminist sometimes means accepting women can do bad things for bad reasons - not constantly looking for excuses for them

[Spero]

Birds - the reason SW couldn't act and couldn't find evidence was because BOTH he and the mother refused to co-operate.

So I think you are giving him sympathy he just doesn't deserve.

[Spero]

Caruthers - I have made one excuse. I thought Gordy was referring to women who allow contact with violent men under court order.

then if violent men kill their children, how can they be to blame if they were acting under compulsion from court?

But any mother who allows young and vulnerable children into unsupervised contact with someone she KNOWS is a risk to them, yes, she is complicit in what might go on to happen to them.

I may have sympathy for someone who is overwhelmed by the demands of a violent and abusive man, but this does not absolve a parent of responsibility to protect their children.

[AnyaKnowIt]

Hang on so If a woman was stabbed by her ex then left the care of her children with that same ex that would be ok then?

[Spero]

I am at a loss as to how anyone can think I am making excuses for women because they are women.

But its a refreshing change from the usual complaint that I am a rape apologist for e.g..

[Birdsgottafly]

Men who live in situations like this are as incapable of making good decisions and doing what they are supposed to, as the women are.

Some people cannot be a parent, for lots of reasons, whether male or female.

They let their children down, that is a fact.

He is guilty if being an ineffective parent, as are lots of parents, both under the radar of SS and outside if it.

It is pure luck that some children survive.

[Spero]

If a woman was stabbed by her ex and left the children with him, I think she is clearly complicit and must share some of the blame for any horrible thing he goes on to do to the children.

Therefore, I think that the father in THIS case was clearly complicit because he KNEW and he acted deliberately to keep the authorities away.

[Spero]

I agree that it is pure luck that some children survive

And what a terrible indictment of our society that is.

[Birdsgottafly]

"Birds - the reason SW couldn't act and couldn't find evidence was because BOTH he and the mother refused to co-operate."

You don't need co-operation, though. The evidence was there, the children were underweight, their development wasn't on course.

The family had no stable housing, there were obvious CP issues.

Neither parents were capable in getting their children into a safe environment.