To have not put make up on dd?

[selfdestructivelady]

We went to a children's birthday party Saturday. All the little girls had make up on and all the parents were saying how pretty each other's dds make up looked. Dd is 4 yo the others were aged 4-5 they had nail polish eyeshadow and lip gloss on.

[Kendodd]

And another thing, admit to your child that they don't look good enough

Admit? What are you suggesting, that all girls 'don't look good enough' and need to wear make up?

[Kendodd]

Well i certainly agree that 13/14 is the absolute worse time to admit to your child that they don't look good enough as they are and should start learning to use cosmetics....

I think 13/14/15 is a good time. It's the time they start growing up and slowly turning into adults. Their skin changes and they need to start thinking about looking after it, they sweat more and so need to wash more and maybe wear deodorant, they develop breasts and so need a bra.

maybe you could point out their boobs aren't the right shape/size at the same time and get them on the waiting list for surgery.

Do you think this is what we are saying to them by taking them to their first bra fitting?

Although I have to admit even at that age I wouldn't introduce make-up to my girls I would wait for them to want to wear it and ask me if they could.

I'm in the 'four year olds shouldn't be made-up for a party' camp, but I don't see why the poster who is saying she would wait until her girls are teenagers before they are allowed to wear make-up is being jumped on.

[Sparklymommy]

MrsO I totally get what you are saying now. I didn't get that before. Of course you don't have to have experimented at a young age to know how to apply make up. There are plenty of tutorials online, make up companies that offer lessons, but many don't bother.

It was one aspect of why I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to experiment younger. Not necessarily a reason to let them or not, just an advantage if they have. And there again I know several girls who have experimented young and still can't apply it!

I am of the less is more school of thought. I get that not everyone is!

[Sparklymommy]

Ice pink was originally introduced as a colour for the male gender. Which is what my boys tell anyone who dares to insinuate their pink t-shirts are girlie.

They both had t-shirts that said "tough enough to wear pink" which MANY mothers wanted to buy off me when they outgrew them.

As I have said above, on more than one occasion, my boys (aged 6 and 7) both wear fairy dresses, enjoy sitting on the chair having a "make over" and even have their hair put in bunches by their older sister.

Just as the girls will often be seen dressed as pirates/vets/soldiers/knights when they are playing dress up.

It's the parents that make the children have these preconceived ideas. And in the grand scheme of things, does it really matter? It's like the mothers who think ballet is for girls, and therefore won't let their little girls do ballet because it must be for the "weaker" sex. I challenge any of those mothers to take a proper look at it. My boys have been lucky in that they have very good older male dancers at our dance school for them to look up to. They are quick to tell anyone who wants to tease them that many footballers are sent to ballet lessons to gain strength.

I reiterate: I wouldn't put make up on my four year old to go to a soft play birthday party. I might put it on them to go to a disco party. But I am talking about a small smidge of glittery eye shadow and a bit of lip gloss. I also might spray their hair with glittery hair spray.

Yes, my little girls wear pretty dresses. They like to look "nice" but then so do my boys. They have their smart shirts and cords and "going out" clothes. Wanting to look good and taking pride in your appearance is not something to be judged harshly on.

[MrsOakenshield]

Ice, it would be nice if you read all my posts instead of just odd bits. I did say that I had slightly plucked that age of the air and that in fact if she showed no interest I wouldn't be bothered. I suppose what I was thinking was that if she did express an interest in wearing make up, that I would want her to wait (this is if she was very young) and that I would like her to know how to apply it properly.

I don't actually have all your concerns about make up and sexualisation, possibly because I don't ever recall having all your issues in general - but that may well be because I grew up in a very female environment (girls' school from age 7, female-dominated family) where I never had much concept that certain things were for boys only (all the women in my mother's family are uni-educated professional working women, lots of girls doing physics and maths at A level), and at age 13/14 boys were barely on my radar - I didn't know any, and boyfriends were something that happened to other girls. I daresay I was very innocent and naive.

I was very gothy and that was what influenced the make up I wore - white face, black eyes. The concept that make up was to attract boys passed me by - I wore the make up I wanted to get the look I wanted, for me. Though I was rather cack-handed about it. Still do and still am.

The point that I obviously rather badly made, as so many posters seem to have misunderstood it, is that I was responding to a poster who seemed to suggest that girls who weren't allowed to experiment with make up would end up not knowing how to apply it, and I was simply stating that that did not have to be the case. However, I really do wish that I hadn't bothered, or indeed bothered about this thread at all.

Let your 4-year-old wear make up, don't let them, whatever. There have been stupid arguments on both sides on this thread so I'm sure we'll all just stick with what we think best anyway.

[IceBeing]

little

I plan NEVER to tell DD she needs to improve herself!

I plan to spend my entire life giving her the impression that she is loved and adored for all the wonderful things about her, her appearance being a tiny insignificant part of the whole.

I plan to tell her that anyone who requires her to look a certain way in order to be deemed worthy of friendship/love is a person she would be better off without.

[IceBeing]

I really don't understand why people think it doesn't make a difference if girls play with make up at such a young age.

Boys notice. By the time they are 4/5 boys already don't want anything to do with 'girlie' activities. They already insult each other by saying calling each other 'a girl'.

EVERYTHING we do to artificially encourage only children of one gender to engage in certain activities is damaging to society.

Thats why I have no problem with people putting on a little nail varnish if they would equally encourage their sons to try it out.

I have no problem with dresses and fairy costumes as long as boys are equally encouraged to wear them as girls.

I have no problem with pink clothes as long as you would reuse them all for a younger male sibling.

But for most people the above isn't true, is it?

So until pink, and make up and dresses and fairy costumes are actually equally acceptable for girls and boys I will not be encouraging DD in any of them. I won't stop her if thats the way her interest goes but I wont encourage.

[LittleBearPad]

When would you suggest Ice

As I doubt many four year olds actually learn how to put on make-up but instead get it put on them.

[IceBeing]

Well i certainly agree that 13/14 is the absolute worse time to admit to your child that they don't look good enough as they are and should start learning to use cosmetics....maybe you could point out their boobs aren't the right shape/size at the same time and get them on the waiting list for surgery.

[LittleBearPad]

Craving and cuddle fish make very good points. Mothers are driving the wearing of pretty make-up to parties not little girls who yes may want to play with make-up as they would with face paint to make themselves pirates but don't need to have their eyelids painted to go to soft play, or worse a princess party.

[ConstantCraving]

What is not being addressed in this discussion is the women sitting round saying how pretty the girls with make up look and not commenting on the OP's daughter who had no make up on. In the OP's scenario the children don't seem to give a damn about the make up and who is / isn't wearing it, its clearly driven my the mum's - a fair few of whom seem to have descended on this thread!

[Sparklymommy]

Dd1 has learnt to do her own make up through years of performing on stage. She has also been looking at courses in stage make up during the holidays and I encourage this as its a useful thing to be able to do, especially if she wants to perform (and she does).

Nobody is saying that four year olds should be plastered in make up at every oppurtunity. They are talking about a little brush of eye shadow and a smidge of lip gloss. Maybe a bit of glittery nail polish.

Personally I would rather that than the writing up the arms look when they try to colour themselves in with felt tip pens. Which doesn't always come off easily with a wet wipe.

I also cannot stand those transfer tattoos that the children seem to adore. My children do not wear those, as they have learnt that they must be taken off before going to school or performing and it hurts scrubbing them off with flannels and soap.

[Bowlersarm]

Oh FFS.

I have nieces and goddaughters.

Some wore make up when they were little, some didn't.

Guess what!

They all wear a little as adults.

It....ain't....rocket.....science.

If they wore a little as a 4 year old what does it matter? Fuck all.

[MrsOakenshield]

anecodotal evidence that some children might run amok after being denied something (really? you consider telling a child that X is for when they are older, with an explanation as to why, denying? Goodness.) isn't enough to make me change my mind on this or anything else related. And I'm really not sure that being an expert at applying make-up at 11 is a life skill to be proud of (though a lack of such at 42 is perhaps something to be embarrassed about!), but that's up to you, of course - again, to me, not a great reason to allow it at a young age.

I did just pluck 13/14 out of the air - my point being that just because DD isn't playing with make up at 4 doesn't have to result in a young adult/adult who can't apply make up.

[Sparklymommy]

I seriously think the people who think its sexual/ derogatory or sexist are the ones that have a problem tbh.

[1974rach]

I don't have a child as yet but I am an auntie to several little girls. I have a life long love of make up and a large collection (admittedly far more than one person needs but that is my perogative) which makes me very popular amongst my nieces.

They all love a bit of glittery nail polish (goes along with dressing up as various Disney princesses) and shiny lips.

They have boundaries in which they can "play", established by their parents, it's not about sexualising children in the slightest. It is merely allowing them be princess twinkle face.

I would have massive concerns about 4 year olds wearing what I consider full make up but wearing twinkly nail polish once in a blue moon is just dressing up.

Awaiting a flaming ...

[Sparklymommy]

When I was a teen a few of my friends went to Glastonbury. There is no way on this earth that my mother would have allowed that! And I wouldn't have wanted to tbf. The idea was scary enough for me. And no way would my dc be doing that!

[Ericaequites]

I don't think 13/14 is a good age, but better than preschool. I think wearing flattering clean clothes are a good thing, but makeup on four year olds is not alright.
Going to dance festivals as. You described is a wonderful experience. I've seen mentions on Mumsnet of teens going with groups of peers to Glastonbury on their own. That's much too dangerous.

[Sparklymommy]

I do not have any links for you mrs O, but plenty of anecdotal evidence that I have seen with my own eyes. I am not saying that ALL children would rebel, but many do, especially when they have been denied something.

I am not saying that little girls of 6 should be encouraged to wear make up if its not of interest to them, but experimentation at a young age is not a bad thing. It's not a sexual thing (as apposed to at 13/14 when it could have those connotations) its just a fun role playing game.

The people on this thread saying its a sexual thing are projecting that attitude themselves. The children do not see it as such.

As you have said yourself, you didn't know how to put make up on. My 11 year old does. And she does a good job of it for the most part.

How do all these people feel about the use of face paints?

[MrsOakenshield]

because that's the age that I, as her mother, have decided is a reasonable age to start thinking about make up and to have a make up lesson. In fact, if she shows no interest at that age, I wouldn't bother - but any earlier is, in my own personal book, too early. And actually, I haven't said anything about sexualisation etc - I simply don't like make up on little girls, just like I don't like earrings (even clip ons), and guess what? I don't have to! I'm capable of independent thought!

An examaple - at a 4 year old's birthday party this weekend (where no make up was in evidence, nor has it been at any party of this age I've been to), most little girls in little girl party stuff - one in a dress which (it's hard to explain) to me looked like a very adult style - not revealing or anything like that, just adult. And I didn't like it. Didn't say anything of course. Just my own opinion. I wouldn't, and won't, buy my DD a dress in that kind of style, even if she wants it. I don't have to, merely because someone else has and she wants it.

[cuddlefish]

Are 6 year olds clamouring to be allowed to wear make-up, or are adults indulging their whimsy and love of all things pretty by getting them into it?

We do this to our daughters, unless it somehow comes from inside.

[BeaWheesht]

Yes madeofstardust I agree completely that's what I was trying to say earlier

[MadeOfStarDust]

but... why is age 13/14 "appropriate" ?

mine have experimented with their own faces from an early age , they can do it so that it looks nice and it has no connection in their minds at all to adolescence, going through puberty and the whole sexualisation of the female face thing.

Personally I would have thought that for those reasons age 13/14 is precisely the wrong age...

[MrsOakenshield]

Those of you saying that you are teaching your children not to conform are making problems for them in the future. Mark my words.

in the same way as children that are denied sweets are usually the ones who crave them, and go crazy on them when mummy isn't around.

The children who are denied make up at a young age when playing dress ups are the ones who will rebel in their teens and plaster the stuff on as soon as they leave the house.

you seem very sure about this. Can you link to some evidence to back your claims up?

As I said upthread, I never played with make up as a child (perhaps because my mum didn't wear much, I don't know) and didn't start wearing it until I was around 16/17 - never plastered it on - no-one I knew did.

It's a real MN myth that if parents dare to exercise some limitations on what their children do, the end result has to be an older child who will proceed to gorge on whatever it is that they have so unfairly been denied/limited - sweets/Tv/make up/whatever. And yet my RL experience hasn't shown this at all. My only downside of being denied access to make up as a child is that I didn't know much about applying it properly, and still don't (but my mum was simply a powder and lippy woman, so she wouldn't have been much help anyway) - with that in mind I intend to take DD at an appropriate age (13/14) to have a proper make up lesson in town. And of course I will talk to her about the subject and give my reasons, should she think I'm being terribly terribly mean.

[Sparklymommy]

I think someone's misunderstanding what I mean by festivals. My children perform in dance competitions (also called festivals) where they perform on stage in costume and make up. Not music festivals with bands. And certainly not staying out overnight!!!