To think I need to stop making excuses for my 4yo Ds's rude behaviour in public

[justkeeponsmiling]

My 4yo DS has always been shy. He hates meeting new people and can't stand being the centre of attention, which usually manifests in him throwing a tantrum. Since he has started school his behaviour has improved quite a lot, to the point where he was ok going up on stage for his schools christmas concert and sing a few songs without any major incident.
However, his behaviour when out in public with him is still a huge source of embarrassment for me. Whenever he is addressed by anyone (doesn't matter what age they are) he will refuse to look at them or respond in any way. If they continue talking to him he will either continue ignoring them or on occasions look at me and say something like "I don't want that lady to talk to me" or give them a Damien-from-the-Omen-like death stare. He will do this even with people he meets fairly regularly, like casual acquaintances of mine or other mums from school. With my close friends whom he sees regularly he is absolutely fine.
The thing is, I know exactly how he feels as I'm also quite shy and don't feel comfortable in social situations. However, I know by constantly saying things like oh I'm sorry he's having a bad day or he's really tired today I've allowed this behaviour to continue. As a result, I know many of the people who meet him and a lot of our wider circle think he is rude and generally not a very nice child. It makes me so sad as I know he really is a friendly, happy and really affectionate little boy and I know I've failed him by not teaching him to overcome his barriers. Those of my friends who know him well love him to bits but it has taken them a long time to build up a relationship with him and they were usually successful by generally ignoring him for ages until he was ready to approach them, which is what works best for him.
Im really at a loss as to how to teach him to be at least polite in public. Ive recently started to talk to him about it and tried to explain what I would like him to do and why (in basic terms, obviously), but to no real success.
I'm really hoping for some practical advice or tips on strategies I could use to teach him! Anybody who has been there and dealt with this successfully I would be endlessly grateful for your suggestions!

[Sparkletshirt]

That sounds quite normal to me. My 3 yo always wants to go to McDonalds at the weekend after we've got the shopping done so I take her because I'm a really bad mother but it's always busy. I've tried going to a half empty table and saying 'Is anybody sitting here' and they'll politely say 'No' so we'll sit down but dd screams her head off wailing ' I don't waaant to sit here!!!'

I'd much prefer it if she just didn't want to speak to other people though.

[BertieBowtiesAreCool]

I think it sounds fine. He's only four! It's normal for them to be wary of strangers. DS was like that if people tried to talk to him but now he's 5 he will usually warm up to people when they ask him a direct but gentle question. He still struggles in big groups of new people but surprised me the other day when we went to a carol singing thing and he was hanging off my leg, then suddenly said "I'm just going to go and play table football with the other kids, OK mummy?" I was but tried to be casual and just said "Yes of course, that's fine" - when I went to find him it turned out the "other kids" were about 2 years old but it's a start!

I like the idea of "training walks" - DS built up a lot of confidence by talking to the man in the local shop because it was the same one or two people each time and there was a clear "script" he could follow. And we got him to go up and ask for his own sauce in McDonalds by saying he could only have it if he asked himself - incentive!

[justkeeponsmiling]

Thanks everyone for your response!
I don't think he's on the autistic spectrum, i don't know a lot about it but he generally understands feelings and shows empathy and an understanding of others without problems. He just hates attention. Even if Ipraise work he has done or good behaviour he will say "no that wasn't nice" or"no, that is not a good painting".
When he is rude in public Iusually gently tell him off- I've been trying not to make it a massive issue as in my experience that can make things worse in the long run!
I like the idea of role play and also of finding maybe some books to read with him, thank you. Will definitely try that!
Hetty thanks, it's nice to hear it can get better!
I don't think I'm expecting too much of him, I don't need him to make "small talk" at all, just a simple "hello" would be fine with me!

[LuciusMalfoyisSmokingHot]

OP My daughter used to be just like that, she was diagnosed with selective mutism and possible ASD, shes 6 now and miles better than when she was when she was 4.

It took the school 2 years to get her to read to them.

Your son isnt rude, just very shy, its very possible he'll grow out of that, like my DD is doing, its best not to force the issue, because it in DD, forcing her would make her freeze and you wouldnt get anywhere with her.

[Lilacroses]

My friend's Ds is very shy like this. He actually does have some other difficulties but I don't think that necessarily follows at all. My friend used to find it so embarrassing. Anyway, once he was about 5 or 6 she told him kindly that there was nothing wrong with feeling a bit shy (she was also shy as a kid) but that is wasn't ok to be rude and that she would like him to say hi or thank you or whatever, even just give a little wave to acknowledge someone. It seemed to help and he is a little bit more confident now.

[breatheslowly]

I would avoid making excuses, particularly avoid saying "he's shy", as I think it reinforces his identity as someone who is shy. There's nothing wrong with being shy, but you probably don't want him to get any shyer.

[BertieBowtiesAreCool]

"Hello" seems to be the scariest thing for some reason! DS always shies away when people loom in and expect a "Hello" but if they ask him a question like "How old are you?" or, even better, start talking about something he's interested in like a toy he's holding or a character on his clothes, then he is usually much happier to answer. I suppose with the "Hello" it's a bit strange and confusing, what do they want, I don't encounter this kind of conversation any other time, etc.

[justkeeponsmiling]

And anyone who suggested bribery - that's a really good idea, I'm going to get a jumbo pack of jammy dodgers and give that one a go!

[LuciusMalfoyisSmokingHot]

Also my DD is capable of empathy and understands emotions, shes quite an empathetic child.

But she would never say Hello to people, hates praise, cant bare to be centre of attention, stubborn as a mule, and hated being touched, even if she hurt herself, she didnt want people giving her sympathy.

[BertieBowtiesAreCool]

Ooh I'm a bit guilty of that breatheslowly. What else do you think works for getting people to back off a bit? I usually say "Oh he's a bit shy" or "He takes a while to warm up when there's lots of new people." but I don't know if that's a bad thing to say! It's just if you don't say anything people seem to keep badgering them and expecting some kind of response which makes him worry more!

[thebody]

tell him that he cannot say ' mummy I don't want that lady to talk to me' as it's rude and you don't allow rudeness.

give him an alternate sentence to say or just tell him it's ok to smile once and say nothing.

give him a strategy. he will grow out if it.

[thebody]

to be fair it's rude of them to keep talking to him with littie response. I freeze people who bore me on public transport so why shouldn't he. think you are over worrying as he sounds a great littie chap.

[Ifcatshadthumbs]

Maybe tell him it's ok to give a little wave if he doesn't want to say hello. I would encourage adults to not keep forcing a conversation with him.

I always say hello to my friends little boy but if I don't get a response I just carry on talking to his mum

[Mcnorton]

Another one here with a similar shy son. He is now 5 & improving as we encourage him to smile or wave to acknowledge the other person if he can't bring himself to speak. I mentioned it to his teacher and she said she would emphasise body language in PSHE lessons at school which may have helped. I would agree that mentioning the shyness in front of him may backfire. my son has learnt to use it as an excuse not to try sometimes!

[CokeFan]

My mum used to try to get me to ask for things in shops. Unfortunately what she did was to take me into a shop I hadn't been in before, stand behind me and push me in the back. Didn't help much.

When my DD was a bit younger I started getting her used to asking for things in shops. First of all I made sure it was a "friendly" shop (sweet shop worked for our purposes). We'd been in lots of times before and I knew the staff were kind. I picked a time I knew wouldn't be busy. Before we went in we discussed what we wanted and rehearsed exactly what to say and do (Please could I have 100g of marshmallows?, offer money, take sweets, say thank you). Worked a treat.

[HerlockSholmes]

YANBU to stop making excuses but i wouldn't make it an issue with him either.

if he hides away and wont speak then dont acknowledge it or push him to talk, just apologise and say that he is very shy and takes a while to come round to people.

i think kids dig their heels the more you fuss.


be glad he isn't saying "hi buttface" to everyone who crosses his path.... not that my DS does that, oh no .

[Beansprout30]

I wouldnt make a big deal out of it or makes excuses and definitely try not to label him as shy. I was stupidly quiet when I was younger, still am sometimes but being labelled shy really upsets me, I began to feel like I had something wrong with me just because I was quiet and it made me worse!!

[TheGreatHunt]

I wouldn't say he's shy in front of him otherwise it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy. Give him a chance to talk, say nothing for a bit, then the person will talk to you instead. Then model a proper conversation do your son knows how to behave. Later on, ask your ds why he did whatever he did, and suggest that it would be friendly to say hello.

Don't put him under pressure and don't put him on the spot.

My ds has been like that but I realised that me calling him shy etc or trying to get him to talk just made it worse. Now I don't intervene - it's painful but ds is now much better and will say hello. Other times he'll ask me to talk, so I will. He's getting more confident now (he's 4) which is great.

[weebleswillwobble]

I've got one too! This time last year (she's just gone four now) it drove me insane - everything you've described about feeling embarrassed and being unsure whether you should make excuses etc.

Then I thought, why am I tying myself in knots over it, and expecting my tiny child to put her obviously very real needs/fears/discomfort aside just to put a grown adult, who quite frankly should be able to see that she is shy and not 'chatty', at ease for a few seconds?

So I stopped stressing, and slowly she is getting much better. A few months ago she wouldn't even make eye contact with her nursery friends outside of nursery - whereas now if we see a classmate out and about she will wave and smile. She's still shy, but will now smile and be a bit more 'polite'. Hang on in there!

[blahe]

raisingchildren.net.au/articles/shyness_what_to_do_about_it.html/context/568

[Mystuff]

My 4yo ds has always been like this too. I agree with PP, don't label him as shy - I think that can be quite harmful as it can make him think this is how he is and he can't change. With ds I feel he is quite introverted and he just doesn't like to express himself unless he really feels comfortable in doing so.

My ds has definitely improved since he started reception, i think helped by his lovely teacher who has tried really hard with him to build his confidence.

I do get a bit embarrassed sometimes, but I just give him a chance to respond, then if/when he doesn't, I answer for him. Putting pressure on feels like it would be counter productive.

[arethereanyleftatall]

I have never met a 4 year old who doesn't do this.

[gimcrack]

My son was exactly the same. We started saying he was shy, and then he kept using it as an excuse. Then we switched to saying it's fine to feel shy but it's not ok to be rude. So he had to give a wave or say hello, and that was it.

I was monstrously shy as a kid and I don't want him to go through that. I also got him to pay in shops (it's a novelty, so he wanted to), and starting school helped. He has improved massively.

[wingsandstrings]

It doesn't sound very unusual but I can see why you might want to tackle it. My DS has always been really great with his peers but not with adults, not looking at them, sometimes not responding to questions etc. At about age 4/5 I started to think that it was a matter of basic politeness, like saying please and thank you and not snatching, and was keen to work with him on it. Kids don't know what social norms and expectations are unless we tell them, and it makes life easier for them if they can interact socially in a way that makes other people more comfortable. It does seem to be the case that if you think people are scary and possibly don't like you then that can be a self-fulfilling prophesy, but if you approach people as if you think they are nice and friendly they probably will be. Essentially first I acknowledged that it can be scary and strange to have a grown-up 'put him on the spot', but that almost always they meant well and were trying to be friendly. I said that not much was expected from him, he didn't have to respond at length. I said that looking up at them, trying a smile, and giving even a one word answer would be really friendly and polite. We used role play a lot - 'OK, imagine you're in the library and the man who works there says 'hello young man, how are you?' . . . 'right now, think about being on the bus and a lady says that the rain is awful' etc etc'.

[flyingspaghettimonster]

He is most likely not autistic. He is perfectly normal to me. My little girl was the same - and we did worry about her being on the spectrum as she was in preschool for a year and they told me she never ever spoke, at all... they didn't know if she knew alphabet or numbers because she wouldn't respond. I went in to sit with the class and see for myself - all the other kids played hair dressers, doctors, cooked pretend food for me - she sat in the corner rocking herself and holding a book. It was weird. In the streets she would avoid all eye contact and also even with family she didn't know on a weekly basis. By 5 she was just like all the other kids. Don't worry, don't make excuses - just say "He's shy"