to totally fail to understand why Sexism is never seen as bad as racism??

[chemicalsister]

Following on from the Saudi Olympics thread, I keep getting upset about Sexism thriving in the modern world when racism is quite correctly - seen by the fast majority as clearly wrong and abhorent.
Even educated professionals have wound me up recently asserting we sholud adapt schools, especially first few years of infants , to better suit boys and their poorer attention span,
AND poor boys now do less well at exams at 16 so we must reduce course work etc..
I am old and remember when boys did better than girls at 16-- There was no outrage and plans to change exams then! It was just seen as inevitable ..... Fume!

[meddie]

How do we change that though grennie. I have happily identified as a feminst since i was a young child. To me its a no brainer. I want to be treated equally, have equal access, equal pay etc. Why shouldnt i be just because I have a Vag.
Why is feminism so scary to so many women,

[Toadinthehole]

Probably Indian women and children.

[Grennie]

Meddie - I think anything that challenges the status quo is scary to many. And once you start to be aware of sexism, it does affect your life and relationships with others. I think all we can do with other women, is to talk about issues when they come up. You don't even have to use the word feminism. But you can still make other women aware of sexism and that it is not okay.

[DontPanicMrMannering]

Not entirely sure of your point?

You mean we shouldn't care about "parochial" sexism as sexism and racism is worse elsewhere?

The fact they are Indian is more an economic issue with taxation of business in this country than race.

By calling everyday sexism here out as "trivial" you are blocking most of Joe public from giving a shit I'm afraid, everyone can relate to sexism on their home not everyone can/will relate to a more global view.

Start at the roots and create a generation who can start to lift their eyes higher.

[Grennie]

And that includes challenging black men's sexism too. They don't get a free pass because they experience racism.

[HexU]

As a mother of boys boys and girls I want all of them to be taught in ways that maximize their potential - I don't see that as sexists.

Unfortunate previous generations perhaps didn't understand female potential as they viewed it through low expectation patriarchal lenses.


Plus there are ongoing problems of losing females in certain professions - and instead of addressing these reasons with creative thinking some folk just think having more men to start with in them would 'solve' the problems.

Racism - well I expect I don't see it as frequently as people who experience it. I didn't see the huge access issues till I had to get around with a pushchair and a pushchair is way easier to maneuverer than a wheel chair.


I have also had a boss who complained about his wife being held back at her workplace while doing exactly that to me because I was female so would probably move on soon - which I did to a company that didn't hold me being female against me. My boss couldn't see the correlation between the situations.


The driving thing is an odd one though - as my Mum has had years of fight Dad to drive but other females like MIL, GM expected their men or other males of the family to drop everything and drive them round rather than do it themselves or learn to drive in few cases. DH wants me to drive him round.

[Toadinthehole]

The fact they are Indians (or perhaps Bangladeshis) reflects that the rich male or female consumer does not care so much about low pay and poor safety standards in those countries, which is a form of racism. This is nothing at all to do with taxation of business. By excluding factors such as this in favour of who gets to drive on the A3, this debate isn't being made parochial so much as infantile.

[GiveItYourBestFucker]

Can't people be concerned about both, toad? For a different example, would I be wrong to ask for equal pay in the UK while there are women and children working in sweatshops in developing countries?

[Toadinthehole]

That is precisely my point.

[Toadinthehole]

And I am now going to say goodnight, and best wishes to all.

[Grennie]

It is a form of racism and sexism. Like every country, it is woman and children who are treated worse in the worplace and doing the lowest paid jobs. As a feminist, I focus on all women, here and abroad.

[FortyDoorsToNowhere]

A women legally has to take 2 weeks off after given birth, where a man doesn't have to have anytime off.

Of course this isn't equal rights, but it isn't sexism and that just confuses me.

[DontPanicMrMannering]

Totally disagree, of you ask a man on the street if they care if a bengali child is missing education to work in a sweatshop they would say they cared.

But they don't Think, they don't on a day to day basis think about the consequences of their financial choices. And absolutely we should be fighting that.

But

Your argumentative stance about cases of everyday sexism that people can relate to, that we can talk to "them" about that we can have every woman argue for even if she isn't educated about global issues is niave and damaging

Your attitude is exactly what turns average Joe against Feminism and the fight against racism. It blocks people out of the debate.

[Grennie]

Forty - I don't think feminism is about fighting for equality, it is about fighting for fairness. Women need time physically to recover from giving birth. Men obviously don't need this.

[HexU]

Surely safety issue are not racisms as white poor countries can have poor safety standards or white minorities in poor non white countries suffer them the same - it's what there government enforces and what the multinational companies can get away with.

There are also many factory owners in India and Bangladeshis who are getting rich off their own ethic groups - much like the Victorian factory owners did off the poor white Uk citizens at one point in time.

Plus there is a whole debate to be had as are poor people better off working in factories with poor conditions to not working at all and starving as the work goes elsewhere or no longer exits. I don't think I understand enough about all the issues to know where I stand on that one.

It does nark me in this country many issue are pigeon holed as 'women's issues' - such as childcare and equal pay. Most women have DC with men and even if they do the bulk of the childcare it impact on the men and half the DC are going to be male. Plus equal pay women contribute to family finances but being paid less is just the womens problem?

[GoshAnneGorilla]

Racism is far more than overt discrimination and name calling.

Racism can be extremely subtle and below the radar too.

I'm a bit stunned that in the year that saw the vile racism around the Trayvon Martin case, people are still so comfortable saying racism isn't a big problem.

And the default when an accusation of racism is made is still often one of denial and minimisaton, regardless of what is actually said, that's why on any thread about racism on here, you'll see a tranche of white people denying that any racism occurred.

The fact that we've had at least two WoC post on this thread saying that no, racism definitely isn't over and impacts their life ad much as sexism, and they have basically been ignored speaks volumes. They aren't allowed the final say, as others apparently know best.

Think if you would be happy about a man declaring that sexism wasn't a big problem, so why on earth should it be ok for white people to do the same about racism?

[LadyBigtoes]

Why do many women find feminism scary? Because to ask for/require/demand equality, and keep doing it, day after day, means upsetting the status quo and to do that you have to tread on some toes, and I think part of the problem is that women are taught very well that it's their role to be nice, to smooth over problems, to pick up the slack.

People (men and women) will use this fact to react against feminist efforts too. For example with name changing. I know women who have not reeeallly wanted to change their name, but have done it because it made the husband happy, then there were the expectations of the husband's parents, their own parents, the message that if you decide not to do it, you'll stand out like a sore thumb, "oh but you'll have a different name from your children!" (assuming they'll have his name, naturally) – as if that's a shocking and terrible thing – "Oh your one of these feminists, are you?" (on a sneering tone). None of these things are forcing the women not to insist on equality. But they are chipping away at her self-worth via reminding her that she's supposed to be compliant, non-disruptive, put the children first etc.

Standing up for equality, equal pay, equal treatment socially, equal treatment in law, and so on should put you in a position of standing on an equal level. It should be about taking your place as in equal, fully respected individual. In fact the forces at play put you, as a feminist, in a position where you are labelled as and/or feel "uppity" or difficult or demanding.

You have to not give two shits about that. I don't. But I do get tired of meeting those brickbats every day. Because I'm not married to DP and don't have his name, because I'm "Ms", because I say "no, my income does not cover the childcare –me and DP both work and both pay for childcare to allow us both to work" – the raised eyebrow from the HT, the sigh from the person filling in a form, the bafflement from the caller who thinks I must be Mrs DP, the slightly sneery "Oh you're such a feminist so I know you won't approve" from the friend who is changing her name. It's hard work. It's a place many women don't want to be in. Women are so often brought up to seek approbation and to get it for looking nice, being caring and not rocking the boat.

Obviously I think the fact that it's like this is part of what needs to change. Also, I do think it is changing, has been for a long time and continues to – but it's slow and there are continual setbacks. However what I am sure about is those little everyday things/"gentle" sexism (a great description) ARE important. They are a huge part of the issue. They are not trivial in their effects and mocking and sneering at feminists for bringing them up is part of the problem I'm afraid.

[HexU]

Racism can be extremely subtle and below the radar too.

Oh yes - I have 'ethic minority' friends with better grades and more experience than white in same field yet find it harder to progress onto further courses of up their careers. Nothing overtly said - but it can be very noticeable over time.

[LadyBigtoes]

Also, I don't think racism has disappeared, far from it! But the big difference is that there is now generally a stigma attached, at least in our society, to racist remarks or behaviour, however slight. So with football for example, any hint of racism is taken very seriously, as it should be. It doesn't solve the problem at a stroke, it just gives it a different status.

[WMittens]

DontPanicMrMannering

mittens if your OH would also have fun driving but you get to decide due to your status based on sex then yes

What status?

[Grennie]

GoshAnne - NOBODY has said racism isn't a big problem. But the Travoyyn Martin case says it all. Big outcry about a black man treated badly by the police, little outcry about Marissa Alexander a black woman treated terrible by the police and courts.

[edam]

Racism clearly is a problem but I think there is a hierarchy of discrimination, where racism is treated as a serious problem that must be stamped out, while more often misogyny is barely recognised, let alone treated as a serious problem.

Look at schools having to report racist abuse, but not misognyistic.

Mind you, disablism is even less well recognised. Definitely at the bottom of the pile.

IMO and IME the heirarchy is this:

1. Racism. Almost universally recognised as A Bad Thing. Even if some people disagree, they realise people will disapprove and generally keep their racist remarks carefully within the hearing of other people they think will agree.

1. Homophobia. Still more prevalent/tolerated but recognised as A Bad Thing by officialdom, in schools and health services and parliament and so on.

1. Misogyny. Barely recognised even by officialdom. And people who object are often labelled as trouble-makers or over-sensitive.

1. Disablism. Even less well recognised and still practised merrily by people in healthcare, in social services, in schools... people don't realise they are doing it, and think it's OK because of course they aren't the sort of people who are prejudiced. Even when they are turning some with heart disease at high risk of having a heart attack away from A&E because it's too much hard work to try to communicate (happened to a patient of my sister's).

[Grennie]

Edam, I nearly agree. But I think homophobia against gay men is taken much more seriously than the same against lesbians.

[WMittens]

RabbitFuckerFromAHat

Well they can drive their own car then. What's the issue?

That has to be the most Marie Antoinette-like post I have seen in quite some time.

Not really, it's not like a whole social class are dying because they don't have cars (or maybe more in keeping with the supposed-Marie Antoinette quote, because they don't have bicycles) due to the elite keeping all the cars (and bicycles) to themselves.

If they don't have their own car then they certainly aren't insured to drive any of my cars; if I let them drive my car, both them and I are committing an offence - you're suggesting I break the law to appear non-sexist?

If they don't drive regularly then I wouldn't trust them to drive one of my cars (quite an instant clutch bite and "goes off like a scalded cat" comes to mind).

It's worth pointing out that I haven't aimed any comment I've made on this thread towards women: my same thoughts and actions apply equally to men, and I would expect the same treatment towards me from women or men.

[SigmundFraude]

Racism and sexism aren't similar at all. For example, you wouldn't say that racist abuse towards Indians or Pakistanis is very wrong, but racist abuse towards Chinese and Polish doesn't matter. Which is sexism really, not ok when directed at women, brushed under the carpet or mocked when directed at men. If you want to eradicate sexism, it has to be extended towards men and women, and it just isn't.