to think we owe it to our DC to let our armpits go feral?

[ClockWatchingLady]

When our kids are little, shouldn't they see that women have body hair (and accept it rather than remove it)?
Once they're in their teens, they'll probably see endless full-body-waxed women online, whether we like it or not.
So while they're little and forming their basic impressions of the female body, shouldn't we stop all this bloody depilation? Whether we feel comfortable with it or not, don't we owe it to the younger generation?

Yours faithfully,
Mr Tumnus

[ICBINEG]

I shaved my pits for summer...coz you know.....the peer pressure got to me...

but it made me smell more, and sweat more and was generally horrible, so I am really happy to finally be back in my normal state now.

I look fine in a swimsuit with my leg hair and armpit hair....and even if I don't, I am happily married and don't really give a flying toss if either other women or teenage boys don't find it attractive.

I try and avoid DD seeing me pencilling my eyebrows of a morning...it isn't about how I look...it is about the fact that people can't tell if I am joking or not if they can't see my eyebrows. I find I can't really function effectively at work if my eyebrows are invisible.

[ICBINEG]

mrsmelons I think attaching massive value to appearance is the problem. Not all our DC are ever going to be lookers. So every time we send the message that 'appearance matters' we hurt them a little.

If Mummy spends a good hour doing her hair, make up, shaving etc. every morning, and Daddy just has a shower and heads out, then what does the daughter watching learn?

That women are valued more on appearance than men? That your value to society is intrinsically tied up in how good you look?

Are either of these messages that you would want to give your daughter?

Or would you rather be telling her "you are fine just as you are, and your value is not based on your appearance".

[LittleSporksBigSpork]

I haven't shaved in years. Nothing to do with my kids (stopped before I had them), more to do with not being bothered by it enough to maintain upkeep and far more comfortable not going through the growing stage anymore. My kids have seen it, they aren't particularly interested, but I do hope I model them doing what they find comfortable for them.

[eccentrica]

My daughter is nearly 3 and likes to examine my legs. If she thinks they're too hairy she orders me: "Mummy your legs are hairy, go to the bathroom and cut them". Or, after a recent (disastrous) experiment with Nair: "Go and put magic cream on them."

I am not sure this does much for my feminist credentials but at least she understands that I'm not 'naturally' hairless!

[MrsMelons]

Why would you not want to look good though? It is not about being a looker but just taking care of yourself. I cleanse/tone/moisturise every morning and night to look after my skin, I make sure my hair looks neat and tidy and I prefer to wear a small amount of make up every day, I have a lot of meetings at work and like to look reasonably nice. My husband works in an office, he spends longer in the shower than me, he shaves his stubble, mositurises, uses deodourant and puts wax on his hair. I can't really see the difference. Neither of us spend a great deal of time getting ready for work.

I don't think it is a bad message to give out if its in moderation and in the right context. I am not sure the message that it doesn't matter at all is right either, sometimes it does.

I think there is a happy medium, I would expect anyone male or female to take care in their appearance at work (depending on type of job of course) and it is important in some environments as impressions can be important. For instance if someone turned up to an interview for a professional job which involved meeting with high end clients looking like they had just got out of bed then it may not give a great impression. I don't believe you have to be a looker but surely everyone should take pride in themselves, male or female?

[Nancy66]

People can do what they want - personally, I think there's much more important things to worry about re our kids' future than hairy knees and pits.

I shave mine, I prefer it. It doesn't matter if you do or don't.

[ICBINEG]

MrsMelons

I don't think it is a bad message to give out if its in moderation and in the right context.

No it wouldn't be a bad thing in moderation. But is it? Have you switched on a TV recently? Have you seen the abuse of Mary Beard because she 'doesn't look good enough for TV no matter her intellectual qualifications'? Have you seen women retired from TV due to age while the men go on? Have you seen the zillions of adverts that link success and happiness with appearance? The adverts that scream at the top of their voices from every TV, radio, website, billboard, shop front that you MUST improve your appearance or be left behind?

Why do you think so many teenage girls have body anxiety issues if the message that you should look good is being given moderately and in context of it being less important than your other values as a person?

The only place in the whole world that your daughter might get the impression that they could be worth something outside of their appearance is in your home.

IMO that means you need to do something special to counteract the massively biased environment outside the home. Like showing by example that your time is more valuable than can be spent on primping yourself for others viewing pleasure.

[LurcioLovesFrankie]

Funnily enough, DS seems able to separate out hairiness and looking good. He helped me choose my work outfit this morning so I'd "look pretty" (I confess I vetoed the floral skirt with striped top combo). He likes to look good too (slightly odd aesthetic from my perspective - mostly cartoon character tops, not my thing, but it keeps him happy). It's about accepting that people can come in all sorts of different looks and that's ok. Clothes clean, not ripped or smelly, body not smelly. That'll do fine (admittedly I don't work in a customer facing job).

FWIW I don't see the point of makeup, not for everyday use. All young women look beautiful because they're young, makeup or not. Honestly, you do, trust me, you just won't realise till you're my age. At nearly 50, I avoid it because I'm terrified of looking like Barbara Cartland.

[Habbibu]

Dunno - maybe shaving will lead to rebellious teenage hairiness? Yy, I shave because that's the cultural norm for me - sure, I prefer the look of shaved legs and pits, but I can't see how that isn't influenced by the society I've grown up in. I'm not convinced I'm any weaker and more suggestible than anyone else, but it's like food - had I grown up in, say, Cambodia, I might think that a spider was a tasty snack, whereas, as a brit, I find the v idea horrible.

[ICBINEG]

Gosh, you know shop assistants? people with seriously customer facing jobs? I'll go out of my way to interact with the one that doesn't look like an explosion in a make up factory.

This is a problem in Boots because they all do....all of them...I really do wonder if they have to put ALL of the make up on each morning...you know something from every tube...coz that's what they look like.

[LazyFaire]

I don't shave religiously. DS has seen hairy pits and smooth pits.

I only shave my legs if I want to wear a skirt, then only the bottom half. I hadn't done it regularly for a few years until this summer as we didn't have the weather for skirts!

If he ever asks (Or I ever have a daughter who asks) I will tell him the truth, which is that I personally get smelly and find excess hair (particulalrly nether regions but probably would leave that out!) quite uncomfortable, but if I didn't I wouldn't bother, and that some women like to keep it and some don't and both are totally normal.

[LeBFG]

It's such a shame really. That we all feel pressured into doing these things. Sorry but I disbelieve those who say they shave for themselves and no one else. It's a cultural norm. One where women shave pits and legs and men don't (well, some men may now be included, I don't know). My DP and his peers would never NEVER shave pits and legs. Totally unheard of. And all my UK living peers always ALWAYS shave pits and legs. So is it likely they are doing so out of pure free choice? I hardly think so.

I remember the pressue to shave my legs at secondary school. I must have been the last person in the group to finally get the razor out at about 13yo. As much as I disliked it, I crumbled. I'm happy now at 37 I can waltz around all hairy without giving a fig what anyone else thinks (almost. I still get the razor if I go swimming - v rare, or wear a posh frock - rarer still).

I'm pleased not to live in a TOWIE culture. I'm pleased my DC aren't being brought up in one either. I don't, however unfortuntely, think my hairy paradings will have any effect on how they view hairiness.

[IsisOhIsis]

I don't shave my armpits, occasionally shave the bottom half of my legs (depending on how I feel. I happily wear a skirt with hairy or smooth legs) and just do a trim and neaten up of my bits

I love my hairy armpits! Do not give a flying fuck what others do with their hair but I do wish other felt the same about mine and there wasn't something of an expectation that I would remove it.

[theodorakisses]

And there we are. We all feel pressured. Because we are all sheep. When I don't shave my left big toe, the curly hair gets caught in my flip flop and hurts. No social pressure. I cant use tampons and was very hairy, i didnt like the clotty tangle, it wasn't comfortable and smelled. No social pressure there either.

[Lavidaenrosa]

No. I will shave my armpits because I like it that way. It looks better.

[Mrsrobertduvall]

I hate body hair, including on men.
I have had my legs/bikini line lasered, so never have to wax/shave again.

I have never had armpit hair, so that's not an issue.

Dd is 16 and epilates her legs sporadically.

[slightlysoupstained]

My mother didn't depilate, or wear make-up, or primp.

I take the piprabbit pony approach for the most part - somewhere between tame & feral.

I was in the shower at the swimming pool a few years ago, when a couple of little faces peeked under the cubicle wall. "Mummy that lady has HAIRY LEGS!" So I think I've done my bit (just glad I hadn't got around to taking my swimming costume off by that point ).

TBH I don't see what's so offensive about suggesting that it's easier to do something with cultural approval? Doesn't mean you wouldn't have done it anyway, but it certainly tends to put a big heavy thumb on the scale.

[LeBFG]

I don't care what others do though, all I'm saying is pitsnlegs shaving is a cultural norm. Like men not wearing skirts. Or wearing makeup. Or not eating pets. You could say people who shave are sheep. Or people who don't shave are ever so slightly sociopathic (I mean, a bit insenstive to societal norms). . They're just names though.

[theodorakisses]

In the early 80s my mum could have been thought of as a sheep. After leaving my dad she embraced feminism, in a champagne type of way. Body hair, greenham common picnics, boiler suits etc. She had a ball but it didn't influence me apart from wishing that I could bring home a friend without finding her naked being reborn between two sofa cushions..lighthearted,not belittling 80s feminism. It didn't last long.

[Habbibu]

It's not about being sheep. Do you only shave your toes because of your flip flops, or because it seems normal to you to have unhairy toes? Do you find the idea of eating insects normal or a bit repellent? Cultural norms are pretty inevitable, and in many ways good, or we'd all just make up or own words, for example. Language is a cultural norm.

[NorksAkimbo72]

I don't shave because I'm 'supposed' to, I just prefer it. My DD, who is 5 asked when she could start to shave, and I told her if she decided she wanted to, we'd talk about it when she's 12.

What is the big deal? It's hair...some remove it, some don't! Why does it always have to MEAN something?

[theodorakisses]

Yes! I don't think anyone would notice a hair on my left toe!

[theodorakisses]

I had camel hump for Iftar the other night. It didn't repel me even though i was brought up on oven chips and fish fingers

[Habbibu]

No, I'm sure they wouldn't notice a single hair. If you had very hairy feet, like a man, do you think you'd shave then, even if there was no flip flop issue?

[Habbibu]

Well, I don't think Camel hump would repel me, tbh, but grubs would. And some people are v adventurous wrt food - my point is only that overall people tend to prefer what they find culturally normal; they might be more or less adventurous, but things like disgust or distaste are often cultural (apologies for stating the bleedin obvious).
What is Camel hump like, anyway? Meaty or fatty?