to think that fox hunting ban might have been a mistake?

[lessonsintightropes]

I live in suburban South London and have done for donkeys. Over the last five years foxes have been encroaching a lot into our neighbourhood and have killed a couple of cats, and regularly torn up bins etc. I know at least nine individual foxes by sight. I'm in zone 3!

I was always rabidly anti-hunting on cruelty grounds when I was ill informed younger. My DBrother and DSis live in very rural Hampshire; she used to hunt and now they drag-hunt exclusively, but they lose a lot of chickens, ducks and cats despite stalagluft-style electric fences.

I've rethought my position over time and have come to the conclusion that town people shouldn't dictate to country people how to live, and vice versa. Especially when countryside vermin start inhabiting my street!

What makes me a bit anxious is the risk to children and domestic pets from a growing fox population. It's certainly made my cat anxious and makes me freak out a bit when I see something dog sized in my tiny suburban garden, but am also well prepared to listen to arguments the other direction (although I will always wish they don't rip up my recycling bags).

Would love to know what the MN jury has to say?

[LessMissAbs]

I'm always a bit puzzled re the argument against the colour of the coats worn out hunting. Do these posters also object to anyone wearing red elsewhere? Or just one group for class reasons?

I take it when they criticise 'rich people' for hunting, they are careful to ensure that their cars dont cost more than the average hunting horse? Do people realise how much horseshoes cost? You can buy a suitable one for under £1000 or a really good one for far more. Many horses are quite old and not worth anything any more. In rural areas, you can keep them at rented livery for £50 a month (thats what i pay, another £50 if you want a stable) and i feed and muck them out before work, as do most of ny horseowning friends. The rich horse owners i know dont hunt - they do dressage or showjumping, and even then the majority are just normal working people. The aristocracy are too busy you g to weddings and tennis matches nowadays to make it popular amongst that group.

i would also have thought it pretty obvious that you need to be on a horse to pursue a fox across country and you need other riders to pay subscriptions to make it viable, and its done in winter for even more obvious reasons.

[ecclesvet]

Bear-baiting, dog-fighting, fox-hunting. Good riddance.

[KittensoftPuppydog]

The class hatred thing is a total red herring.
The fact is that this barbaric practice continued for so long, ONLY because it's supporters are posh. Other disgusting activities are illegal.

[MrsLouisTheroux]

Not sure about the price of 'horse' v 'car' debate!
Owning a horse is a luxury in this day and age. They are not used to work the land. Agricultural machinery does that.
Times have moved on. Land rovers ( once a necessity just for farming folk) are now bought to pull horse trailers taking the horses (once used for work and transport) to dressage shows.

[WorraLiberty]

It's not about class and it's not about money...it's about being sick in the head and enjoying animal cruelty to get your kicks.

I feel exactly the same about any thugs of any background...wealthy or not.

A bunch of sickos on horseback who happen to have a few quid in the bank, or a bunch of sickos in hoodies watching a dog fight.

It's all the same to me.

[Damnautocorrect]

Because lots and lots of dogs and horses hunting and chasing 1 fox to its death is going to make a difference to the urban fox problem?!
That poor fox literally running for its life must be terrified.
Now I'm not a foxes biggest fan but its just not a humane way of keeping numbers down.

[hackmum]

At the risk of stating the obvious, foxes are only "vermin" from the point of view of humans. As far as the fox is concerned, it's just going about its business, trying to survive. Foxes don't go around actively trying to make life difficult for humans.

Foxes don't kill for fun - they sometimes kill food surplus to their requirements, storing it for later, which is a perfectly logical thing to do.

I always find it odd when people start applying moral judgements to animal behaviour.

[Queen0fFeckingEverything]

Fox hunting made no difference to the urban fox population anyway

And it was deffo a class issue. I mean, can you imagine the hoohah and outrage and wringing of hands if a crowd of youths in hoodies on bikes, led by a pack of baying staffie crosses in studded collars, were to chase a fox through the streets of London and then cheer in delight as they watched it being ripped to shreds?

Yet it was fine and dandy when the landed gentry did it in their posh coats on their posh horses

[Queen0fFeckingEverything]

That is to say, the fact it was ever considered legally acceptable is a class issue.

Being a sick in the head fucker who gets their kicks out of torture is not confined to any class.

[LastTangoInDevonshire]

Fox-hunting does NOT keep the numbers down (they would have to be hunting 24/7 to do that). It is just the "unspeakable in pursuit of the uneatable" !!

[SamuelWestsMistress]

It's not so much the hunting ban, rather than the people who think they're cutesy fluffy little joyous things and ENCOURAGE them into their streets and gardens.

I think they're horrid, and am neither up nor down about hunting, but I think they need to be controlled.

[ImTooHecsyForYourParty]

I can't remember who said it but I watched a comedian talking about fox hunting. He was making the very good point that as a method of pest control - it is ridiculous. He compared it to getting rid of mice in your house by dressing up in your sunday best and chasing a mouse round your kitchen with a pack of cats.

Let us not pretend that fox hunting was ever about efficient pest control.

[Cheddars]

I never know whether to laugh or cry at these threads.
There is so much ill-informed hysteria spouted about these animals.

Foxes aren't vermin, they're wild animals. If they are getting into your bins, use a wheelie bin. They can't knock them over.

[LackaDAISYcal]

SodaStreamy, re my comment about it being a part of the humane culling process... I was being ironic. If you look at my previous comments I am pretty much against fox hunting.

to those on their high horses (arf) about people denigrating the uniforms and the ceremony, etc; I think the point people are trying to make is that it is ALL about the pomp and absolutely Fuck All about sensibly keeping fox populations down. Show me some figures that back up your argument that hunting culls foxes more effectively than other methods and turn out wearing the aforementioned sweaty jeans and barbour jacket and your argument might have more sway. Or indeed that it has any effect on the urban fox populations.

And there is not a single person here who is against hunting foxes with a pack of dogs by horseback also saying that they don't need to be controlled. If it is proven that they are on the increase and that they are as much of a pest as they are percevied to be in cities, then most people would support a cull. However, it is interesting that if you look at council factsheets on urban foxes (a quick google on urban foxes throws up lots) they pretty much say feed them if you want to but don't get too close or interact with them in any way. If they were that much of a problem surely councils would not be putting that out there?

[pinkballetflats]

Worral - I do wish there was a like button feature for posts. I agree...its all the sane...money ire no money watching pain and suffering to get your kicks is seriously twisted.

[somebloke123]

ImToo It would indeed be eccentric, but would you actually make it illegal for someone to dress up and run around with their cats in pursuit of mice? After all it doesn't make any difference to the mice and it may be fun for the (odd) person who does it.

I don't see how anyone who keeps a cat, which kills birds and mice, is justified in getting too exercised about fox hunting.

I'm reminded of the old saying that the reason why the puritans hated bear bating was not that it involved cruelty to the animals but that it gave pleasure to the people.

[Eyesunderarock]

I approve whole-heartedly of the ban on foxhunting, hare coursing and badger baiting.
If you want to control vermin in towns, don't leave food unsecured, wheelie bins cut down on foxes and rats and seagulls gorging themselves. Take-aways and customers flinging the debris on the floor is a major problem in many areas.
If you need to cull, get a marksman/woman with a rifle.

[burberryqueen]

round ere if a fox bites the head off a lamb (which they do, and not cos they are hungry, it is for fun) it cost the farmer £60 a pop.
hunting is not only for rich folk.
the Labour ban on hunting was not about animal welfare but was a sop to the traditional Labour voters.
all of those crying out about how evil it is to enjoy the hunt - would you also ban fishing? is it not seriously twisted to put a metal hook through a fishes mouth , tug it out, take a pic, and then throw the fish back - or is that not twisted cos the people doing it are not perceived as 'posh'?

[WorraLiberty]

I hate fishing as a 'sport' too. I agree it's cruel and I've always said if fish could scream, most people probably wouldn't do it.

As for the farmers, of course they need the foxes culled, therefore they shoot them.

I needed to kill a house fly this morning so I whacked it with a newspaper - job done.

I didn't catch it and pull its legs and wings off one by one, whilst laughing and getting excited about it.

[YouveCatToBeKittenMe]

Foxes do not kill for fun or out of malice. Wild animals do not have a guaranteed next meal, so they will take the opportunity to kill all the chickens and then try to remove them or bury them for later, they would eat them all but are usually disturbed before they can take them all away.
If the chickens were wild they would fly into trees and the fox would only get the old or sick ones. My chickens however would not have the sense to fly high enough!

[LackaDAISYcal]

I don't agree with recreational fishing either, which is done by lots of people, both rich and poor. If you are for hunting, are you also for fishing? Your point is what exactly?

Farmers controlling foxes on their land is not the same as a pack of people on horses with dogs catching and torturing one animal for the fun of it.

[burberryqueen]

my point was that many folk who are knee jerk anti - fox hunting have never even thought about fishing being a blood sport and that is because it is a class issue.
was my point not clear? if not, my apologies.

[Manchesterhistorygirl]

Fox hunting did nothing to keep the population under control, but the hunt is an ancient tradition that for the most part no one cared about before tony and his merry band of socialists came into power. It certainly was a class issue to ban it.

Fwiw I'm a country girl and don't like the practice of hunting with dogs, because you can't eat the end product. Hunting is actually good for some horses because of the exercise it gives them and we allow the hunt to cross out land. Our local hunt is a drag hunt and there are plenty of similar hunts out there.

Those who said owning a horse is a luxury, it is, but think of where all the spending on them goes. Money into the pockets of farmers, farriers, feed companies, local shows, etc. most of my customers aren't posh at all, they're normal people, but their love of their animals puts money into the local community. I hate that having a horse is seen as "posh" by people who think they should somehow tell others how to live their lives. How about I don't tell urbanites how to live their lives and they don't tell me how to live mine?

[LackaDAISYcal]

good point Cat...if chickens didn't routinely have their wings clipped so that they can't fly away from predators when threatened, less chickens would be caught by foxes.

Foxes are opportunistic killers though and will kill when they can; I doubt very much that they see killing things as fun either; they are driven by a pretty string survival instinct. Why the insistence on ascribing human characteristics to animal that are doing the only thing they know how and that is to survive? It really does nothing to strengthen the argument for fox hunting.