To think instead of paying for DD's schooling we could give her 250K cash for her 18th birthday?

[LondonMan]

DD is about to turn 3. I have looked at on-line info for local state schools and don't like what I see. For three of the nearest primary schools where I've managed to locate statistics, two have over 90% of children with English as an additional language, and one over 80%. The schools all have bottom or (rarely) second-from-bottom quintile performance in all subjects, in Ofsted reports. All local state schools are likely to be similar, because they are teaching the same demographic, children of local social-housing tenants, mostly Bangladeshi. (From long experience living in the area, virtually all non-social-housing parents leave the area once they have children.)

We don't want to move because we are near DW's job.

DW is hoping to get DD into the 14th nearest state school (which is only 0.7miles away) using their religious criteria. That school has excellent Ofsted results, "only" two-thirds of pupils have English as an additional language, though apparently one third arrive speaking no English at all.

There is also a just-opened foundation secondary which might be an OK option later.

I suspect we won't get into the good state primary school and will end up private all the way, which we can afford. There is a top girl's school nearby, and the fees are actually slightly less than the 15K a year we spend on nursery care at the moment.

I've calculated that if we don't send DD to private schools for 13 years, and invest the money instead, with average luck (5% return) we'd be able to give her about £250K cash instead.

The title question is mostly rhetorical. I expect that DD will not end up in the sub-par schools, whatever we decide. I'm just a bit bemused by the situation and thought I'd give you all something to comment on.

[LondonMan]

I can't see race needs to be brought into it.

Not race, language.

[Pigsmummy]

I am starting to like you OP but I am getting frustrated, how long have up been living where are in the UK? Canary Wharf, just like the Salford Keys and many other developments were designed for high achieving young people and not designed for family life. Just look a little bit beyond the development (either CW or SK) and you will see a real community, with a hotpot of cultures and languages, CW (and SK) was a major regeneration project. Before having DD did you not consider your location? I did before having my DD.

Unless your DW is running a bank/is an on call doctor/surgeon/running the world then I would suggest that she gets a grip regards relocation or you shut the fuck up complaining and just get your DD into a school that you deem worthy of her presence.

[sicutlilium]

Move to Islington, so that DD can go to The Children's House, thence at 7 to City Prep/Cavendish/Highgate/St Paul's Cathedral School/Highgate/Channing/South Hamps. Sorted.

[LondonMan]

I can see why you wouldn't want to send your kids to a school where over 90% of the kids attending have English as a second language. Ew, your precious kids could be in the same class as my kids are, who somehow have managed to be top of their class despite not being native speakers.

And heavens forbid they may learn about other cultures and traditions. Gosh, couldn't have that! I wonder how my poor kids manage to have friends across the school and across the cultures. Maybe you ought to look at results and how well the school is doing instead just looking at the % of non-native English speakers.

Idiot.

Like quite a few others on this thread, you appear to enjoy a good rant based on made-up facts. Though you have gone further than most.

Go back and read my posts, properly this time. Then if you don't think it matters that a school is in the worst 20%, or don't think the reason is anything to do with 90% EAL, explain your point of view constructively.

[Wuldric]

You are a total nit OP. Or a UKIP voter. Or maybe those terms are synonymous.

Immigrants are not undesirable or untouchable. Immigrants tend to be entrepreneurial and clever and hardworking.

I was an immigrant schoolchild. I knew no French at all in my primary school, which was a French school. The lessons were all in French - a language I had no knowledge of whatsoever. My parents sent me there because the international school (the only option for expats) was very poor,

By the end of the first year, I was top of the class. All the subjects were graded individually. You have to appreciate how regimented French schools were, and still are AFAIK. I also managed to be top in French.

All i can say is that you are a total and complete prejudiced nit

[JamieandtheMagicTorch]

LondonMan

As seeker says - you need to get your facts straight

Some of those EAL children will have no exposure to spoken English at home, some will have one or both parents who are bilingual. Some will have already attended pre-school, nursery or play group where English is the exclusive language, others will not. Some will be able to speak English, some will not.

Your "sent to Bangladesh" comment is laughable, actually.

Your assumptions are what is letting you down here.

curry eater - you assume EAL children are not bright - that they don't possess the conceptual knowledge of native speakers. They do, in many cases. They just need to learn the English term for their concepts.

Schools with high numbers of EAL students are normally excellent at using non-verbal ways of teaching concepts. Methods which benefit everyone

[lupo]

not sure what race has to do with it. DS half Indian and goes to a prep school in a white area but the school has lots of Indian, African and Chinese pupils who prob wanted go there to avoid narrow minded attitudes from people like the OP. Ethnic minorities have a amazing work ethic and often do very well in life. Your child might learn to mix with other cultures and gain something. Even those without money for prep often value family, respect and hard work above everything - your DD may learn a thing or to and not in inherit your prejudices.

[LondonMan]

EAL simply means that English is not your mother tongue.

I've posted more than once that in the case of the one good state school, which has slightly less EAL than the rest, 30% speak no English at all on arrival. However it's defined, it's what it means in practise in my area that matters.

Which I would have thought would be sensible to find out for yourself before you started throwing ignorant opinions round......

It's as if you think there's something wrong in getting child-related information by the quickest and easiest route possible, posting on Mumsnet...

[JamieandtheMagicTorch]

Er, no. Your opinion was not based on what you read on MN, you came here with it fully-formed.

[OliviaMMumsnet]

Ahem

[JamieandtheMagicTorch]

OP Good website if you want to educate yourself

[LondonMan]

Some of those EAL children will have no exposure to spoken English at home, some will have one or both parents who are bilingual. Some will have already attended pre-school, nursery or play group where English is the exclusive language, others will not. Some will be able to speak English, some will not.

I can work that out for myself, what matters is what it means in practise. "Some" doesn't help, more quantitive information required. If you or anyone else has actual knowledge of what it means in my local schools, enlighten me.

Your "sent to Bangladesh" comment is laughable, actually.

Why? Do Bangladeshis not do this? If you know that for a fact, say so. I said it was a projection, i.e that I didn't know if they did this. I know from real life and Mumsnet that in some Asian cultures it is normal to send children to be temporarily or permanently raised by relatives.

[LondonMan]

Er, no. Your opinion was not based on what you read on MN, you came here with it fully-formed.

Don't know what this is in reply to. Of course I came here with a "fully-formed" opinion, in the sense that it was hopefully coherent. If based on faulty-facts, I would like to find out so I can reconstruct it based on better information.

[JamieandtheMagicTorch]

Well, Mr Clever Cogs. If you can work the former out, why can you not "work out" that people moved here from Bangladesh to gain better work and education, and therefore do not send their children back to Bangladesh to be educated.

If that's not clear, I am saying it for a fact.

By the way, a Projection is a term deriving from Psychoanalytic theory, and suggests that, on a subconscious level, sending your own child away to another country to be educated is what you would like to do.

I'm not sure you meant it that way

[JamieandtheMagicTorch]

I'm orf now.

[LondonMan]

Immigrants are not undesirable or untouchable. Immigrants tend to be entrepreneurial and clever and hardworking.

You are lacking in comprehension skills. DW and I are immigrants. I have not posted about immigrants, I have posted about language.

Like a few others before you, ranting based on made-up facts.

[JamieandtheMagicTorch]

for educated in my last post, read raised.

[LondonMan]

Well, Mr Clever Cogs. If you can work the former out, why can you not "work out" that people moved here from Bangladesh to gain better work and education, and therefore do not send their children back to Bangladesh to be educated

I didn't say they did. I speculated in passing that the reason children might arrive at school speaking no English (a fact that really surprised me when I read it on the school's web site) was because they might be sent back until they were of school age.

It doesn't really matter why, but since, for reasons I fail to comprehend, you find my speculation offensive, do you have a better one to explain this fact? (I honestly don't care why and don't see why it matters, really you are responding to an irrelevant speculation on my part.)

For example I might be wrong assuming it's Bangladeshi children that arrive at school with no English, maybe it's more recent European immigrants?

[LondonMan]

Sorry x-post.

[LondonMan]

By the way, a Projection is a term deriving from Psychoanalytic theory, and suggests that, on a subconscious level, sending your own child away to another country to be educated is what you would like to do.

I'm not sure you meant it that way

OK I'll come clean; at one stage before DD was born, DW suggested that her mother could raise her until school age. I thought that idea was mental.

[LondonMan]

In case not obvious, MIL is Asian and living in Asia...

[Wuldric]

I can work that out for myself, what matters is what it means in practise.

I imagine, don't you, that most 11 year old immigrant children, for whom English is their second language, would be able to spot the grammatical error in that particular sentence.

OP, you are not just a nit. You are a badly-educated nit.

[LondonMan]

I'm off for now, will check back tomorrow.

[mummytime]

Well the school I help in, in a relatively deprived area (not London); the EAL children tend to have more supportive parents and o better overall.

[hopingnothopping]

Londonman Your OP is valid and I have no idea why some posters are so rude.

I know CLSG about as well as it is possible to know it. It is an excellent school - staff and students are inspirational. If your DD gets in, go for it.

Your alternative is to move to Kent which still has grammar schools and for your DW to get a train to Lewisham/ Greenwich / Woolwich and then hop on the DLR to CW. This journey should take well under an hour if you live near a station.

Where you currently live, the local schools will severely hamper your DC's educational chances and that those that can, pay to go private (if their social consciences allow it), or move (if their social consciences don't allow it).

Effectively, both groups pay to avoid the schools local to you and to improve their DC's life chances through using wealth. One lot feel that they have preserved their socialist credentials. Some might call them hypocritical.

The fact is that nobody would send their DC to some schools in parts of South and East London if they have any choice, and I agree with your implicit point that this is an appalling state of affairs.