I'm not linking to the DM, but Barrister Barbara Hewsin suggests lowering the age iof consent to stop the scapegoating of old men accused of abuse.

[INeedThatForkOff]

I've been very glad to see that times have moved on since my teachers husband tried to assault me on a Year 9 camping trip. I'd be outraged if what happened to me 20+ years ago happened to my DD now.

However Barbara Hewson suggests that 'misdemeanours' such as Ms Hewson argues that 'touching a 17-year-old?s breast, kissing a 13-year-old, or putting one?s hand up a 16-year-old?s skirt' could be addressed by lowering the age of consent to 13.

It was only a matter of time, I suppose, before views like this were reported.

[LineRunner]

Oh and if 'it was different then' and 'accepted' it was wrong that it was so - it was a case of girls being expected to 'not tell' while hating what was happening and some men creating that culture and exploiting it.

Just because the 'culture' was different doesn't make it less vile and harmful.

I had some horrible experiences that made me sick to my stomach and have never forgotten them.

[LineRunner]

stealth Yes, I think most men were decent - but I do wish some of them would have spoken up more instead of doing the whole wry smile and a back slap routine.

[StealthOfficialCrispTester]

Yes thats true. There were probably quite alot of men and women who wouldnt have dreamed of doing anything like that but turned a bline eye or accepted thats how things were. The .ajority probably

[INeedThatForkOff]

I have never told my dad what happened to me, for fear of what he would do to the man who tried it. My DM honestly had no idea at the time of the seriousness of it because neither did I and because I was mortified by my teacher's subsequent bullying so I didn't make a fuss.

Good riddance to those days and those attitudes.

[INeedThatForkOff]

Oh, and I'm talking early 1990s.

[Binkyridesagain]

This is being discussed on The Wright Stuff today.

Can someone tell me when Child Sex Abuse became a low level misdeamenour? I think I might have missed that memo.

This woman (?) has no idea of the effects of child abuse on the child or on the adult they become. Maybe she should keep her ill informed opinions to herself, as comments like hers continue to hurt and effect the survivors of abuse.

Stupid ignorant bitch.

[MrsKoala]

Yes, i agree Linerunner. But i am trying to think of ways to change attitudes. I find you (a general you) often can be right (or righteous), or can be effective, but not always both. I am just trying to think of incidents when opinions have massively shifted over a short period and then apply effective lessons from that onto this situation.

But IneedThat - we do accept things like sexism and racism in the past for those reasons. So when does the past become the past? NOT talking about rape - that's always been illegal. Just generally.

I know people who genuinely think it's okay to slap someones arse when they walk by, or to 'cop a feel'. How do we re-educate them without alienating them? Because the amount of people who think it is okay is mind boggling. If you push back too hard you don't give them any room to come to their own conclusions. And if people don't change of their own accord, then they don't really change at all.

I'm just trying to be pragmatic and solutions based, as i think that will be more beneficial to society in the long run.

I re-iterate i DO NOT think any of it is okay. And i am genuinely furious that it was considered okay. But i want to fix it and sadly i don't think we will win hearts and minds with a heavy handed approach.

[LineRunner]

I think Yewtree is a good start.

[Sparhawk]

I'm failing to see how lowering the age of consent would stop these old men from being convicted. Would lowering the age of consent suddenly mean these girls consented to him touching them? It's not some 3rd party saying, 'I saw this dirty old man touching up a girl,' whilst the actual woman is cool with it. It's girls themselves saying, 'I was touched and I didn't consent.'

So even with a lowered age of consent, it'd still be sexual harassment/assault because there wasn't consent.

And yes, forcing someone to kiss you is the not the same as, say, forcing someone to give you oral sex, it's still sexual assault though. It just means that it shouldn't be punished as severely as a more serious sexual assault.

[picnicbasketcase]

What a stupid thing for a barrister to say. And anyway, the point is that these children didn't consent. Lowering the age to 13 would not and should not automatically mean that anyone over that age is fair game to dirty old men.

[MyNameIsInigoMontoya]

I sometimes wonder when people loudly voice this sort of opinions, whether they have had experiences themselves in their childhood that they feel uncomfortable about, and whether their reaction is either an attempt to "normalize" what happened ("it was OK, nothing wrong with it, why should I anyone mind, everyone else experienced the same"), or to convince themselves that they weren't affected ("never did me any harm, "strong" women can handle someone touching their bum", etc).

[Greythorne]

The woman is dangerous.

I truly do not know where to start with the Spiked article.

When I read about this furore on the BBC site, I assumed she had been misquoted or some slightly dodgy quotes had been taken out of context. I had no idea she had written the article herself.

I hope she is regretting this.

[INeedThatForkOff]

we do accept things like sexism and racism in the past for those reasons

I don't. I challenge my gran's casual racism. My FIL's one time, stupid, ignorant BNP vote caused a breakdown in our relationship that, while he's moderated his views and his vote, has never been fully repaired because I would not let it pass unchallenged.

When teaching literature it is imperative that children understand that racist language used is not the voice of the author, but a representation of an era.

I think attitudes to sexual abuse and harassment should be challenged in the same way, regardless of the perpetrator's age.

[Greythorne]

Instead, we should focus on arming today?s youngsters with the savoir-faire and social skills to avoid drifting into compromising situations, and prosecute modern crime.

Absolutely classic.

Let's put the onus on children and teenagers to avoid molestation and assault.

[ExcuseTypos]

I grew up on the 70s and I can remember some men thinking they had the god given right to touch a woman's bum, grope a breast, make sexual comments etc etc.

I also know that the majority of people young and old, thought they were "dirty old men" or "pervs". We were allowed to play outside all day as children but were warned about about people like this. So it wasn't "widely accepted" behaviour.

I also remember getting a vile "dirty phonecall" when I was about 15. My parents took it very seriously and said we could go to the police if I wanted to.

Actually as I'm typing this has just been on Sky News. The chambers she works for have put out a statement saying they are her personal views and they do not share them.- hope she gets the sack to be honest.

[Sparhawk]

It's classic rape-culture; victim blaming, sympathy for perverts and putting the onus on victims to avoid abuse, rather than abusers to NOT abuse.

[StealthOfficialCrispTester]

Why dont we just legalise all the stuff. Thatll stop the poor men getting picked on.

[StealthOfficialCrispTester]

Because after all that is the key issue

[mrsdinklage]

Stealth - now there's an option - we wouldn't need barristers then, though Hewsin might not have a job by teatime anyway

[EuroShaggleton]

I know Barbara through the legal world and I am shocked by this. She has always been forthright and outspoken, but she is a human rights barrister and has fought for women's rights on a number of issues.

I think there is a debate to be had on lowering the age of consent, but it should not be raised in the context of the Stuart Hall/Saville group of cases.

[MrsKoala]

Sorry - INeedThat, i wasn't clear, i meant a bit further back than that.
But, what you mean is you challenge them in the present for saying things in the present - Not for saying racist things in the 70's? That is exactly my point, challenge people for behaviour (again NOT rape) ie attitudes to slapping a girls arse, now. NOT by challenging it now for doing it in the 70's.

For example the people i know who would have done it in the 70's (think fans of Life on Mars, the sweeney etc) wouldn't do it now. They would be horrified if they were accused of something now, which happened then (again NOT rape). It would be like smacking a dog for shitting on the carpet 2 days later.

They will ONLY accept it is wrong NOW not it was wrong THEN iyswim. They may be wrong (i think they are). BUT if the goal is making them stop doing it then does it matter how it's done? or is it better to be effective?

It's amazing how fragile people are and to a lot of them accepting they were wrong is just not an option - far better to think we are frothing berserker lezzerbians. Whereas if you give them a 'get out' while still saving face, then they will often take it. Hence my example of drink driving. I know so many people who used to do it but wouldn't now. But there needed to be a kind of collective acceptance and 'amnesty' on their wrongness.

I am, of course, talking about attitudes rather than actions here. but once everyones attitudes change hen the few people who do terrible things but hide behind the consensus of ignorance will be easier to spot.

Not sure i'm making my point well, apologies for rambling.

[iseenodust]

I see it as her marketing herself as the 'go to' barrister if you are one of these old pervs. She's spotted there are going to be a number of high profile / drawn out cases - think of the fees. And the cynic in me suggests that she will play the 'a woman barrister will look better defending than a white male of similar age to the accused'. Low & loathsome.

[EuroShaggleton]

iseenodust she doesn't do criminal defence work.

[ouryve]

We need to send her a whole packet of mumsnet biscuits.

Tell you what, let's legalise burglary, then it will no longer be a problem. Why stop there? Too many people tax dodging? Why not rubber stamp those legal loopholes they exploit? I'm sure trying people for murder is just such a pain in the arse...

Stupid woman.

[iseenodust]

EuroS I stand corrected on the marketing ploy but I stand by low & loathsome.

This is a cut n paste from her Twitter;

" Not if said 14yo is now a mature adult: stale complaints of sexual offences are not what we expect of mature adults. Get over it"