to finally be able to say there has been too much immigration

[moogy1a]

Now that UKIP have made massive gains in local elections,conservatives stating that major changes need to be made and labour admit that they made a big mistake in having an almost open door policy can I finally say this in public without the hysterical accusations of being racist?

[propertyNIGHTmareBEFOREXMAS]

Of course you can say that. As long as you are not inciting hatred you have freedom and speech.

[Grinkly]

Just can't stand immigrants insisting on their rights which defy British Law -was listening to Jemima Khan's radio prog about second wives. Grrrrrrrrr. Bigamy is illegal in the UK. Then the issue of forced marriage Grrrrrrrrrr, or female circumcision Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

[hettie]

I see no one able to actually rise to the challenge of backing up their 'thoughts' on this subject with any really clear evidence......
moogy exactly how have the indiginous working class lost out? Spell it out for me, how has immigration directly done this?

[hettie]

But grinkly..... We haven't changed any laws have we? What does insisting mean? Asking? Law makers can say no and then we can engage in dialogue about why forced marriage (or what ever is not ok)

[seeker]

When has an immigrant insisted on their rights in defiance of British law and got anywhere?

[wordfactory]

hettie I think there have been problems in some areas of high unemployment, where factory owners etc now only employ foreign worjkers because they will work on short term rolling contracts for minimum wage. No holiday pay, no sick pay, no maternity pay. No guaranteed hours.

Local people can't or won't do that. And I don't blame them for not wanting to work like that. Working people fought for hundreds of years to get reasonable rights.

[hettie]

But grinkly..... We haven't changed any laws have we? What does insisting mean? Asking? Law makers can say no and then we can engage in dialogue about why forced marriage (or what ever is not ok)

[moogy1a]

because mass immigration leads to immigrants taking the lower paid jobs as the job market becomes saturated.
It's been mentioned a few times in this thread that immigrants take on service jobs etc in high numbers. these are the very jobs which have been traditionally taken by the under educated working classes.
As the numbers immigrating has risen massively, the numbers accessing professional jobs has risen which is why the middle classes who previously thought mass immigration was a good thing ( cheap labour for agriculture, hotel industry etc) now are rightly concerned that the professional job market will also become saturated.

[QuietTiger]

I think a lot of people confuse "Legal immigration" with "illegal immigration".

Quite rightly, those people who qualify to enter into the UK legally under the immigration rules should be allowed to do so and it is irrelevant what nationality, skin colour, ethnic origin etc they are - they are a benefit to the UK, because they bring skilled labour, pay taxes and contribute to a multi-cultural society.

Illegal immigrants are often economic migrants, who are looking for a better life than the one in their home country. Because they do not qualify for legal entry under the immigration rules, they resort to entering the UK clandestinely, and then either work illegally or claim asylum.

If they claim asylum, then under the terms of the 1951 Geneva convention, the UK has to consider their asylum claim. They have the right to help whilst this is going on - certain benefits, legal aid, etc. There is no question that this is often abused and economic migrants claim to be someone who requires political asylum. Their application is quite rightly refused by the UKBA (because they are not a genuine applicant) and they become a failed asylum seeker, who often still remains a drain on UK resources because they appeal against removal, etc.

Regardless of the rights or wrongs of illegal entry into the UK, the illegals/asylum seekers still have to be treated as basic human beings and given rights because we are a civilised society. "They are not bringing Britain to its knees" - successive morons in government are doing that.

The UKIP is a racist party feeding on the fears of the daily mail reading masses. Immigrants will not "destroy" Britain. And I say that as an ex-immigration officer who worked at the sharp end in enforcement for over 10 years.

[helenaconhambarter]

When has an immigrant insisted on their rights in defiance of British law and got anywhere?
Abu Qatada ring any bells seeker?

[seeker]

Abu Quatada has been dealt with under the law. The law may be an ass in this case, but he hasn't been given special treatment because he is an immigrant!

[hettie]

OK moogy.... So I see that that argument makes intuitive sense to you. But the idea that "mass immigration leads to immigrants taking lower paid jobs" is your thoughts/views/assumption isn't it (unless your about to show me good evidence to prove that that is true). And the problem with that assumption (and the reason that you could be accused of being racist) is that you assume that immigrants take low paid jobs. What's that assumption based on? That they are all unskilled? Poor? Desperate? By making that assumption you are assigning characteristics to a a very varied group.....so yes you are using a sterotype and yes that could be construed as racist

[PatPig]

"Quite rightly, those people who qualify to enter into the UK legally under the immigration rules should be allowed to do so "

Only in a very narrow legal sense, one not relevant to the discussion of 'too much imigration'.

For example some people are not allowed to come here under the immigration rules, such as children of British citizens born overseas, where the British citizen cannot show sufficient income to support them. Many would say that this is wrong, and they should be allowed here. On the other hand, several million have come here from Eastern Europe, and while they have the right to do so, had the country been polled on this, undoubtedly there would have been a resounding 'no' vote to this.

[moogy1a]

Just how many times do people trot out the line that immigrants take up low paid jobs that the british won't? and that's coming from pro immigration people.
It's not racist to say that if you arrive , possibly underskilled in a foreign country you are likely to take a lower paid job.
Don't try and pin a racist tag where there is none. This is why it's impossible to discuss this rationally most of the time. I know, fling the Daily Mail line at me too.

[PatPig]

Hettie, only 18% of Pret a Manager's staff are British. Even less in London.

These are low-paid jobs.

This is not racist, it's fact.

There are agencies that advertise jobs in Eastern Europe, without even bothering to look in the UK.

This is not racist, it's fact.

[helenaconhambarter]

seeker he is an immigrant (albeit an illegal one) and he has defied British Law not just by coming here in the first place, but by still being here when the the Government have repeatedly tried to remove him for having being found guilty of a criminal offence, but are constantly thwarted by the European Courts.
I'd say that was a case of insisting on his rights in defiance of British Law.

[slug]

moogy1a. When I first came here I worked 2 or 3 jobs at once. None of which were skilled. I got up at 5, was at my first job by 6am and worked through till 10pm most days.

I get headhunters calling me because I am (now) highly skilled in what I do. I've not had the same career the whole time I'm here, but I'm damn flexible and I have a reputation in my industry for competence and reliability.

I had hear the term "jobsworth" before I came to the UK but I never really understood it until I worked here.

[wordfactory]

I don't think expecting sick pay or maternity leave makes one a jobswoth.

[Hullygully]

THERE HAS BEEN FAR TOO MUCH

ANYONE WOULD THINK WE MARCHED OVER THE GLOBE TAKING OVER OTHER PEOPLE'S COUNTRIES AND EXPLOITING ALL THEIR RESOURCES

oh wait..

[MoreBeta]

I nearly emigrated to New Zealand a year or so ago. The hoops I had to jump through and the money I had to put up to guarantee I would not be a drain on the NZ state was very large.

Personally, I dont have a problem with that and I dont see why the UK cant have the same policy.

[PatPig]

I didn't march anywhere.

[hettie]

Ask yourself why you assume that immigrants will arrive underskilled....why?
And it might be a fact that only 18 percent are British. But it doesn't then make it fact that they are taking jobs... Maybe some immigrants come here and buy pret food and create jobs....or jobs in other areas. Job creation is possible too

[Hullygully]

Do you not have any antecedents Patpig, or any sense of the sweep of history and interconnectedness of past and present?

[TheToysAreALIVEITellThee]

Having worked with a company that took on a number of immigrants because they were cheaper I have to say yanbu

[FreyaSnow]

The only thing I can work out from this thread is that a lot of people on both side of the argument want to have arguments about ideology and not about what is factually happening with immigration.

I feel unable to form an opinion on this issue because the general debate beyond MN is also like this.