To think that grammar/spelling standards are not what they were?

[Meandmarius]

I'm mid 30's and have noticed that most of my friends/peers are able to distinguish between 'your and you're', 'where, were, we're' and using the words 'have' and 'of' correctly.
I've noticed that in younger generations there just doesn't seem to be the same standard anymore and I wonder why that is.
Not saying for one minute that my own sp. and grammar is perfect - it isn't. I just wonder if there is as much emphasis on it nowadays as there was back in the day..

[OneLittleToddleTerror]

Um, I would argue that the plural of CV is CVs, while the plural of curriculum vitae is curricula vitae. (I only know this because of datum/data).

[DolomitesDonkey]

I'm wondering if it's something to do with PCs being Personal Computers - ergo they are posessed by persons. In which case that wouldn't apply to CV - unless the latin is different - and LRD says no.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Why? It's plural already, it doesn't need an extra S.

I don't follow the PC/PCs argument with them being possessed by persons ... how does that work?

(Btw, I am watching the West Wing and have Bartlett-style pedantry in my mind. I don't actually have a clue for myself.)

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

It's like people on here writing DCs instead of DC - why? I don't get it.

[nagynolonger]

Will someone please tell me which is correct.

James's bedroom or maybe James' bedroom

[limitedperiodonly]

Yes LRD. But CV is a word in its own right. Plus it's usage that counts more, which means that words and phrases will end up being what most people believe them to be whether I like it or not.

[OneLittleToddleTerror]

You mean PC is already plural? I thought it stood for Personal Computer. The singular.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I don't think it's a word in its own right, but fair enough.

I accept that's how usage works, and I don't have an issue with it. I just don't quite get this instance.

one - no, I'm completely in the dark about whatever is being said about computers. I meant, 'curricula vitae' is already plural, just as 'dear children' is already plural, so, to me, CV and DC sound better than CVs and DCs.

[OneLittleToddleTerror]

nagynolonger I believe both is correct. Like St James's Hospital vs ... there must be some St James' somewhere.

[Meandmarius]

Nagy, wouldn't it be James's bedroom as there is only one James? James' would imply that there's more than one James.

Not sure if that makes sense written down but sounds right in my head!

[ComposHat]

LRD I agree, my Grandmother can just about write her name and address. She can read the more straightforward articles in the Sun but anything else defeats her. My Aunty (in her 70s) can't read in her head and struggles over relatively simple words.

Both of them came into the labour market at a time when there were countless jobs available that didn't require any literacy or numeracy skills. I'd imagine jobs like that are relatively few and far between today.

They also didn't have Facebook or web-forums where their spelling and grammar could be held up to ridicule. It was easier to avoid written communication; the only people who ever saw their written output were family members. My granddad would write everything for my Gran, including notes to the milkman. It was a bit awkward when she got him to write a message that read, 'Come round at half seven, Harry is on nights this week' (Joke)

I don't imagine they are unique amongst people of their generation.

[BagWoman]

As a former teacher who began teaching English in sec school in the mid 1970s, I can tell you that the old O level and GCSE exams were marked more strictly- with deduction of marks for grammar, punctuation and spelling errors. The weighting of these now is far less- resulting in pupils not being taught so rigorously. To compound that you have a generation or two of teachers who were not taught themselves- so they can't mark their pupils' work correctly either. The new curriculum is supposedly putting back the emphasis on correct spelling etc re. exam grades.

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

But I think the one people get wrong most would be "the boys' jumpers were all left lying in the mud" - where there are lots of boys and lots of jumpers !

[shrinkingnora]

SecretLindtBunny - just wanted to clarify something. You did tell her it was 'Mowet' not 'Moway', didn't you?

[BagWoman]

Nagy, wouldn't it be James's bedroom as there is only one James? James' would imply that there's more than one James.

The rule for words like names/proper nouns which end in 's' is that either is correct. James' looks neater and in context you would know if it was 1 James or more than 1. James's is equally correct but looks a bit odd.

eg Charles' wife is called Camilla. No mistaking how many men there are- is there?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I always like a good milkman joke.

But yes - my mum used to do remedial education for adults and I think it's not that uncommon.

I do know people in their teens/early 20s who come out with the old 'I don't need to learn to spell because I have a spellchecker', but they're mostly doing it to wind me up (no, no idea how to put that preposition somewhere nicer).

[limitedperiodonly]

SecretLindtBunny - just wanted to clarify something. You did tell her it was 'Mowet' not 'Moway', didn't you?

I wanted to know that too shrinkingnora but I was too shy to ask.

[mrsbungle]

I completely agree. I agree that most people my age (mid 30's) and above seem to have a good enough grasp of grammar and spelling (I am basing this on my extensive research of, erm, my facebook!).

The teenagers on my facebook, though, beggar belief. I don't think it's about texting - they just can't spell. My 18 year cousin spells terrible as terribul. No for know, aloud for allowed etc. She spells cheaper - as cheeper.

There are lots of people on my facebook who I went to school with. Quite a few of them left school at 16 and I don't think they would mind me saying they were not really academic. All of them can spell properly.

I asked my friend (who is a teacher) about it and she told me that teachers are supposed to be pointing out the good bits about a student's work. So the emphasis is on their creativity. Say they are writing a story - if the story is good and they have tried to tell it well - then basically if there are spelling mistakes - they are ignored. They have moved away from the red pen through what a pupil has written. I am sure there is a lot more to it than that but this is how she explained it to me.

[nagynolonger]

Thanks for the replies. Maybe it just looks strange because James ends in 's'.

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

I think it was a bit rubbish in the old days though when the main, or only, feedback you'd get back from your teacher about your great story was several mis-spelled words crossed out and re-written in red pen. Maybe, if you were lucky, a "good" at the bottom. That was quite lazy teaching too wasn't it ? And discouraging really. (Though as my Mum was a teacher I know it takes a while to read them all and go though them with your red pen !)
I think there's more helpful things you could notice and draw child's attention to though, such as "great beginning" or such-like

[Tortington]

• on mumnset I don't give a shit, but in real life and at work I do. I often look at the computer with lopsided head when it suggests some grammatical error, I don't know wtf is wrong. no idea what a colon or semi colon is for - and yes I have googled it - but it doesn't stick in my brain.
  

A colon/semi colon seems almost superfluous. If spell checker tells me to whack it in - I will - not sure it's actually doing something a comma or a full stop couldn't do.

there is also some rule about when you can start a sentence with 'And'. whilst I can't remember what that rule is - it's not needed.

MORE SERIOUSLY. Grammar or the lack of - doesn't bother me as much as how many children can genuinely not read very well. It's shocking

[OneLittleToddleTerror]

custardo I don't nit pick on grammar mistakes. But when I see a whole post filled with mistakes from all of

your/you're
were/we're
no/know
aloud/allowed

It really really does my head in.

[Meandmarius]

It's like people on here writing DCs instead of DC - why? I don't get it.

I suppose if you were saying 'I went to the shops with my DC', that could read as dear child or dear children, so the poster could be using DCs to communicate that they have more than one child.

[Meandmarius]

BagWoman, as a former teacher do you think that there was more emphasis on reading and books back when you first started teaching, than there is now?
Or am I looking back with rose-tinted glasses

[Talkinpeace]

Grammar matters.

I'm an accountant. If I write letter to clients or HMRC I need to be certain that they understand what I am saying in the same way that I intend it.
They also need to be able to ascertain the multiple levels on which a letter can be written.
Without good grammar, misunderstandings arise.

That is why English is the language of diplomacy and commerce : it has such versatile vocabulary and phrasing.

When my children produce a piece of work for school I make them read it aloud to me. There is no better way to make them realise if the grammatical structures work or do not.