To think that grammar/spelling standards are not what they were?

[Meandmarius]

I'm mid 30's and have noticed that most of my friends/peers are able to distinguish between 'your and you're', 'where, were, we're' and using the words 'have' and 'of' correctly.
I've noticed that in younger generations there just doesn't seem to be the same standard anymore and I wonder why that is.
Not saying for one minute that my own sp. and grammar is perfect - it isn't. I just wonder if there is as much emphasis on it nowadays as there was back in the day..

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

cory -ohhh, yes, good point!

For people who don't know, what St Bernard (or any medieval Latin writer)'s stuff looks like is pretty much this:

B.th'isth'toth.songwihbyitsuniq'dig'ity7sweet'essexcelsallthos'Ihavementio'ed 7anyoth/sth/emightbehe'cebyev/yrightdoIacc+itastheSo'gofSo'gs.

That is the equivalent of lightly-abbreviated medieval Latin, most texts have more funny symbols and fewer actual letters.

(FWIW the text reads 'But there is that other song, which, by its unique dignity and sweetness, excels all those I have mentioned and any others there might be; hence by every right do I acclaim it as the Song of Songs.')

hamish - I always think that too about children (or adults) who're not exceptionally bright, but also struggle with these things. I think it can be really tough to get a diagnosis of dyslexia for a child who isn't very bright, but they need the help at least as much.

[Dawndonna]

Cecily I would say they had a problem with maths, but there are so many answers to that question, lack of confidence, bad teaching etc can all be covered.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

There is such a thing as dyscalculia (or dyslexia) that's not developmental (ie., something you're born and grow up with), but acquired after an injury to the brain of some kind. It's interesting to compare the two. There are people who suffer head injuries and have an inability to understand what numbers are basically for. My mum teaches a girl who had some kind of brain injury, and she has had a lot of difficulty understanding how it is that 3+4=7.

OTOH there are people I know who've been diagnosed with developmental dyscalculia/dyslexia whose problems seem to be more to do with working memory - they understand the concept, but don't have the working memory to manage the numbers. I think this is a different activity from the first.

And again there are people who don't seem to manage the symbols but manage the concept and the working memory.

It's really strange but interesting IMO.

My feeling is, wow, I'm not about to judge someone else's SPAG when I know how many ways my brain doesn't cope with things!

[PhallicGiraffe]

YABU, I've just seen a 40 year old use 'your' instead of the correct 'you're'.

[sieglinde]

Gin, would it help if science specialists were required to do more writing at uni, as is the case in the US?

[CecilyP]

Cecily I would say they had a problem with maths, but there are so many answers to that question, lack of confidence, bad teaching etc can all be covered.

No, definitely not bad teaching or lack of confidence; genuine lack of abilty. But lack of ability regarding maths and not anything else. The example of dyscalculia I was given was by a retired maths teacher who taught a pupil who couldn't tell the time and couldn't do the maths that most Y2s would make light work, but who went on to do A levels in modern languages. Are you saying that this person just has a problem with maths rather than actual dyscalculia?

[Hamishbear]

Is that a sign of discalculia when there's a huge disparity between what you can achieve in other subjects compared to your ability in Maths? For example I couldn't tell the time until I was about 14 nor could I tell my left from right until I was 16 but I achieved high O'level and A'level grades back in the old days apart from Maths where I was unclassified for both O' level and CSE.

[Dawndonna]

I think it's entirely possible that the person may have had dyscalculia, Cecily. I too cannot tell the time on a digital clock. I can't read prices on shelves, and if I'm tired I'm up the creek without a paddle, particularly with the advent of digital everything. I must be one of the few people that always opts for the analogue clock on my computer!

LaQueen Nobody understands my address book but me, the telephone numbers make perfect sense to me, but don't work for other people, because I've written the numbers down which means they are in fact in the wrong order, but when I read them back, to me, they're in the right order, ergo they work!

[GinOnTwoWheels]

Gin, would it help if science specialists were required to do more writing at uni, as is the case in the US?

When I was at Uni (in the mid 90s as a mature student) I certainly had to do plenty of writing, lab reports/essay questions every single week, dissertations/project reports of X000 or even XX000 words (can't remember how many) and written exam questions where the answer would fill 2/3 sides of A4 at least. Do they not do that any more - genuine question?

[Meandmarius]

Just come back to this thread and have spent an illuminating time catching up! Some fascinating stuff here.

I disagree that poor spelling is linked to lack of exposure to reading. Reading and spelling are two completely different skills. Children with poor working memory etc. will find it more difficult to learn to spell correctly. They may be avid readers. Others may read very little and spell very well. Poor spelling is not linked to low IQ. Perhaps believing that it is linked is a sign of stupidity....?

I must say that I'm guilty of believing that there is a link between reading and being competent with grammar and spelling, however this is based purely on my own experience (both personal and peers). Have there been any studies or official findings to prove either way if there is a correlation between the two? Apologies if there have been and, obviously, don't want to cause any offence with this viewpoint but I do believe that there could possibly be a link.

[Hamishbear]

That was in reply to my point (I think) I was speaking from experience. When I was around 9-14 my spelling, handwriting and grammar were utterly shocking and about 5 years behind my chronological age. Think their/there not correct, random capital letters, what looked like careless errors etc. At 13 I couldn't seem to remember to paragraph and words like necessary were utterly beyond me.

My written work (content) was good and showed some flair but the presentation spelling and grammar were very weak. My reading age had always been very high and my vocabulary. From the age of around 6 I had been reading voraciously. Slowly, things got better. I literally ate books reading perhaps 10 or more a week on average. Long books. By the age of 15 something seemed to happen, intuitively I knew how to spell. Since then my spelling has been pretty good, my written grammar not so much but well above average I'd say.

It was as if incrementally my brain had begun to remember how to spell etc. After a while many words would have been viewed thousands of times?

I am not sure if you can grow out of dyslexia? I doubt it. Certainly my ability with Maths has never improved but then I didn't spend thousands of hours on arithmetic?

[Hamishbear]

If you speak to any experienced English teacher they always say their best writers are always those that read.

[BadMissM]

I've always found grammar and spelling easy, almost intuitive. Despite good grades in everything else, I could never understand the point of Maths.

That said, ever since I was a child, I've always had my head in a book!

[Meandmarius]

It was as if incrementally my brain had begun to remember how to spell etc. After a while many words would have been viewed thousands of times?

I really do believe that there's something in this, Hamish. Interesting that both yourself and BadMissM mention an intuition for spelling and grammar and you were both readers. I read a newspaper from around eight years old, family members would try to hide it from me, to attempt to shelter me from the news but if I found it they would always let me read it. I am pretty much convinced that this, along with a love of books, led to me being competent (not perfect, as I mentioned in my OP) at spelling and grammar.

[Talkinpeace]

both of my parents are dyslexic - I'm not ...
my Mum hates numbers, Dad and I love them (I grew up with Mum)

nowt so strange as brains

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

hamish - you don't grow out of dyslexia, but you do develop coping strategies. I'm dyslexic, and as a young child, that showed up as being very slow learning to read, and then having appalling reading and spelling. But I learned strategies to get around these. My spelling isn't brilliant, but it's not terrible either. You'd expect I'd improve, even if slowly and with difficulty, between ages 5 and 20.

But, if someone qualified tests me for dyslexia, they can still see the same deficits that caused me to struggle with reading and spelling in the first place. Those deficits will never go away. The pattern to my strengths and weaknesses hasn't changed. And, if I try to learn a new language, in a new orthography (like Greek or Cyrillic), I find the same old problems come straight back. I am more aware of what to do to sort those problems than I was when I was five, but the underlying cognitive deficits I have, are still there and still affecting me.

[Dawndonna]

Hamish I hope you didn't 'literally eat books', it's such a waste of a good book!

[Talkinpeace]

Book sellers call cheap paperbacks "aga food"

[stubbornstains]

Oh God. A friend practises Bowen technique, and has just produced loads of stickers saying "I've been Bowen'd by X". Give me the strength not to point that one out....

[emlu67]

I am in my forties and went to a comprehensive which wasn't the best but I don't have any trouble with they're, their, there etc. I worked in banking and could not believe how many senior and very well paid people were so poor at basic grammar, in fact rightly or wrongly it lowered my opinion of them!

When I saw a senior manager email 'in this manor' instead of 'in this manner' I was truly shocked. Call me old fashioned but I think it does matter!

[NetworkGuy]

I've seen similar things (manor | manner) on 'official' .gov.uk websites (the typos I spotted were on a local site, but annoying because the event being promoted was aimed at school pupils!)

Seen today - a news item about the "Grammar Nazis" (their words, not mine)