To think that grammar schools should either be scrapped altogether or available in every county?

[Perriwinkle]

How can it possibly be fair or reasonable to have them only in certain counties?

I know that many people will say "how can a system that supposedly favours the brightest ten percent of children, ever be fair?" but personally, I've actually got no beef with that provided that the opportunity to attend these schools is available to the brightest children in all counties.

How can it be equitable that the brightest children who live in counties which do not have a grammar school system are routinely failed by the comprehensive system whilst those who live in certain counties are not because they are able to attend high performing State-funded grammar schools?

I think if you're anti grammar schools altogether you should probably hide this thread. This is not meant to be a thread about the pros and cons, relative merits, inequalities or shortcomings of either the grammar school system or the comprehensive system. It is a simply a question of wishing to hear any reasonable justification that may be put forward for the continued existence of the grammar school system in its current guise.

How can it be fair to continue restricting the opportunity to enjoy a priveliged grammar school education (akin to that which many people pay handsomely for in the private sector) only to children who live in certain parts of the country?

[TheOriginalSteamingNit]

Although there are comprehensives at both ends of the extreme - ones with a much more wealthy intake, and ones with a much less so - most schools, like most areas large enough to contain 800 or so 11-18 year olds, have children from a variety of backgrounds.

I certainly recoil from the grammar system on the whole, but agree with OP that it should either be everywhere or nowhere - I can't really fathom the rationale for having it in pockets of the country and not others.

[Tailtwister]

We're in Scotland, so no grammar schools. I do wish we had them here and at least had the option. I do wonder though how much of the access is money based. That is, how many people go independent through primary and then coach their kids to get into the grammar. How much is success due to the right preparation for the exam rather than natural ability?

[iseenodust]

YANBU. It's supposed to be a national education service but like health there is an element of postcode lottery. (In this county it is comprehensives all the way.) You may also like to look at regional funding and the discrepancies there are in funding per pupil even after deprivation etc has been factored in.

[NewFerry]

Earlier in the thread was a list if of counties with grammar schools. It includes wiltshire. In the interests of balance, can I just point out that there is effectively only 1 grammar school (well 1 for boys & 1 for girls, so only 1 chance per child of going there) in wiltshire. Based in the south of the county, in an area with poor public transport links to the rest of Wiltshire. therefore, in all practical ways, unless you live in Salisbury, wiltshire does not have grammar schools.

We have lovely comprehensives, and some un-lovely comps too. I would rather extra resources were put into those than in creating more grammar schools.

Thank-you, as you were......

[TheOriginalSteamingNit]

Yes, Yorkshire and Humber were on there too, but as far as I know there is a little pocket in N Yorks and one in Lincolnshire with 11+, but the rest not.

[SingySongy]

We live in a bit of a black hole zone. 3 miles in one direction from a grammar school catchment, and a few miles in the other direction from another. The comprehensives nearby are pretty poor. Our catchment one is in special measures.

It's pretty annoying [understatement].

[Yellowtip]

But tiggy the article also quoted the CE of the GSHA (and former HT of a superselective) citing the Sutton Trust report of 2008 in support of the fact that grammars are often more socially diverse than the top 100 comps. He also emphasized just how big this whole issue is for grammar school heads; there's a big push on to do whatever can be done to negate the advantage of coaching.

[CocoNutter]

If there are no grammars to cream off the brightest kids, comprehensives do better anyway. The important thing, I think, is to teach in ability sets within the comprehensive. That way the kids mix, so no class divide, no stigma about which school you went to, kids might be in the top set for one subject and bottom for another so it's more personalised, and funding is more equal (all the grammars round us have far better facilities than the comps). I could have gone to grammar, but only one person in my primary class chose to - the rest of us went to the comp, which was excellent, and did very well, as did my friends.

[DadOnIce]

The reason there is such a "desperate scramble", with people employing tutors and so on, is simply that there are so few places compared to the demand. The answer is surely more grammar schools, not fewer. I went to a grammar school in the 80s and nobody's parents employed a tutor - it just wasn't necessary.

[JenaiMorris]

Just to re-emphasise what NewFerry said, we're almost into Wilts and ds does indeed go to a Wiltshire school. It would take 1hr 15mins to drive the 35+ miles to Salisbury from his Wiltshire comprehensive (assuming clear roads) so no, the grammar schools didn't feature even remotely!

Thank goodness tbh.

[noblegiraffe]

People rhapsodising about the German system haven't done their research. It's been utterly condemned by the UN for perpetuating social inequality and there have been plenty of calls to scrap it and replace it with a fairer education system. Unfortunately I think that the middle classes in Germany are blocking this as they are keen to keep the Gymnasium which their privileged background means their kids are more likely to attend than the poor and the immigrant non-native German speakers.
Very much like the middle classes tutoring their way into the grammar system here and then saying that anyone who disagrees with the system simply wants a race to the bottom and academic children to be penalised.

[socharlotte]

discorabbit-we had really academic types who mixed with the working class and it worked.'

So 'the working class' or more accurately their children can't be academic?

Did you mean to be so offensive?

[TheBigJessie]

www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storyCode=6028593

I read this interesting article last week, and I think it depicts a rather less halcyon view of Grammar schools. I don't know the modern statistics for the grammars that are left, or course, but it's an interesting article, nevertheless.

[Trills]

YABVU to think they should either be scrapped or be available everywhere.

Presumably if you have an opinion on grammar schools at all you have an opinion on whether they should be
a) scrapped
b) everywhere

Those are quite different things

[Yellowtip]

And how about those who didn't 'tutor their way in' but simply got in and for whom the grammar system suits? Their parents' opinion has to be discounted too?

[socharlotte]

Interestingly there is no difference in the results of superselectrves a t GCSE and A level, to ordinary grammar schools.
In my job I go into all types of school and I have to say there is a whole different ethos in grammar schools.I am all for them being rolled out !

[BelieveInPink]

That list doesn't include Lincolnshire, and we have the 11+ here.

It is accurate to call the non grammar school a comp. At least we do here, although it has literally just changed to an Academy so obviously not any more.

I know that in our area, whether I agree with the system or not, my DD would be suited to the GS. She is very academic and not into sports etc, so the non grammar school would be emphatic about the areas she is not keen on. My second DD though, the local comp (or secondary modern if you like) would be perfect for her. Even if she passed the 11+ I don't think a GS would be the best place for her.

[socharlotte]

Lincolnshire is on the list at 3.1!!!

[socharlotte]

'It is accurate to call the non grammar school a comp'

How can it be a comprehensive when the top x% are being creamed off ?

[Yellowtip]

socharlotte I think you'd have to look at the results on a school by school basis before you can make that generalisation stand up.

BigJessie that bit at the end of the article prompts the question: what is the percentage of FSM students at the top 100 comps?

[TheBigJessie]

No idea. Not even sure whether I can find it out through google, tbh!