to ask for 2 bits of baby advice as there is more traffic?

[catgirl1976geesealaying]

Thank you

DS is 13 months old

Issue 1: About 6 weeks ago we did CC with great sucess, he got it after 2 nights and was going down without a whimper and sleeping through.

For the last week he has been hysterical when we put him down again and it's been like night one all over again. We go in to re-assure at 5 min, 10 min and 15 min intervals. It's heartbreaking

I don't think it's separation anxiety starting to show (but could be wrong) He goes to nursery 2 days a week and is happy there. He spends 1 day a week with my DM and again is fine and happy. He sleeps over at DMs occasionally (and did so in the midst of this upset) and goes down with no issue there

Is there anything I can do? This is horrible.

Issue 2:

He thinks "no" is a game. Is that just normal for his age? My main concern is him playing with the TV which he could pull down and it scares me (wall bracket ordered)

If I say "no" he grins, shakes his head, giggles and does whatever got him the "no" again and again and thinks it's great fun

Any tips for re-inforcing "no" or do I just have to wait for him to get a bit older?

Thanks for any advice.....

[marriedandwreathedinholly]

Our dc are much older: 18 and 14 but controlled crying was very much the mantra back then. DS was a very poor sleeper and stll needs very little. The cc got him off at 8pm with no problems but for us it was counterproductive because he would be up after 6 or seven hours sleep ready to play and learn - he was at his most receptive at 2am or 3am - i wasn't and eventually we went with the flow and put him to bed at about 11pm when we went and that bought a full night of sleep DD was a more ordinary poor sleeper and much more needy and cc wouldn't have worked with her - she just wanted body contact. All babies are different and what works for one will not work for another.

If cc was working though and now isn't, please don't discount teething pain or ear pain which are both worse when lying down. Might be an idea to get him checked out if you are going to continue.

As far as no goes all you can do is constantly supervise and set very defined boundaries.

[CoteDAzur]

midori - I'm sure your children sleep through, too. I don't claim to have exclusive rights to good sleep habits.

What I am saying is that "they sleep through in their own time" isn't much joy when everyone here knows that some don't. Not until they are 2 or even 3 years old. That is too long to persist in a sleep-deprived daze, and it is entirely unreasonable to expect parents to wait for years for a good night's sleep. And all for what? So baby doesn't cry for a few hours over several nights

[ElphabaTheGreen]

midori1999 ...funny that. All my older three sleep through all night every night too and have done from a young age.
WelshMaenad Mine too, midori. Odd!

No wonder you don't believe in sleep training - you've never had to consider it if that's the case! And don't believe for a second it's your exemplary parenting that's achieved that. You got lucky, pure and simple. I tried every gentle method going with DS from birth to encourage good sleep - he still wakes every 1.5 to 2 hours throughout the night, just like his dad and grandad did as babies.

Zimbah What I don't understand is why most people who do CC say how much they hated it, but that it was worth it because then their DC slept. They don't seem to realise/care that there are other methods that can also result in DC sleeping well that wouldn't necessitate all the crying.

What I don't understand is that every time we have a CC brawl, the anti-CC brigade come out assuming that those using CC 'don't seem to realise/care that there are other methods'. I haven't come across a single - not a single - MNetter using CC who hasn't considered and exhausted every gentle sleep training method going before using CC as a final resort. Do you really think that those using CC get some kind of perverse pleasure out of hearing their babies upset? Do you really, really not think that any thinking, caring mother would try everything else first when she doesn't feel that waiting it out is an option?

I've said this before, I'll say it again - I do not understand the vitriol that's directed at those that say they use CC. It's a parenting choice like everything else. When someone comes on here saying that they don't want to breastfeed because they just think it's a bit weird/creepy/odd/don't know anyone else who breastfeeds/can't be arsed with the difficulty of it, they get nothing but friendly support. If anyone came on telling them they were 'selfish', weren't 'sucking it up for the good of their child', 'cruel', 'neglectful' or any other of the many comments that have been made about CC, they'd be absolutely and universally shot down in flames (and rightly so). I just don't get why sleep training attracts such unpleasantness.

[PessaryPam]

SirBoobAlot There is also so much evidence to show that both CIO and CC are not only harmless, but offer no long term sleep improvement.

Well CC worked for my twins, thank God! They've turned out OK and they can sleep for Britain now at 21.

[PessaryPam]

BTW our CC with the twins was done under advice from the Sleep clinic when they were 13 months old. They did not sleep properly for 4 months before that and I nearly went insane with lack of sleep.

[Moominsarescary]

elphaba you must go on different ff/bf threads to me, everyone has ended in a bun fight with ff being told they're selfish etc. Don't know why I always get sucked in!

Some people are lucky, their dc sleep from sn early age with not much difficulty. Mine have all been awful, but so am I. After trying everything else at the age of 2. Ds2 I did it at 20 months.

We haven't tried it yet with ds3 21 months. Untill 2 weeks ago he had slept through a hand full of times since birth and woke up every night ever couple of hours.

Suddenly he has started sleeping through allthough I've still had a couple of times when he's woken at 3.30 and not gone back to sleep. We've tried everything except cc.

[Moominsarescary]

We tried cc with ds1 after trying everything else at the age of 2. Ds2 I did it at 20 months.

That should be!

[FunnysInLaJardin]

Good post Elphaba

[AmberSocks]

if its luck then ive been lucky 4 times,co sleepimg and falling asleep in your arms when they are tired is the way forward.

[Moominsarescary]

Ds3 would never fall asleep in my arms, even as a newborn and won't come into bed with us. Not that it was an option as he was prem

[thegreylady]

My ds was born in 1970 and when we had sleep problems I sat right by the cot with my back to it and just stayed there playing lullabies very quietly on a cassette player.
If he screamed I just spoke to him and sometimes stroked his head but never picked him up unless he was wet or uncomfortable.
It did work-he knew I was there.
It took a couple of weeks.Sometimes I would say 'Mummy's going to the toilet' and would go for a couple of minutes-never more.I couldn't just leave him distressed but felt he had to learn that he wouldn't be held or played with-it was sleeping time.

[NessunDorma]

I have a 14mo DS, he shares a room with his sister so couldn't be left to cry for more than 5 mins or she would wake up.

What worked for us was really wearing him out. So we put DD in bed,come back down and play hide and seek, playing with a ball etc. Just for half an hour. Then all the toys go away, we get his special blanket and a bottle of warm cows milk and have a cuddle on the sofa while he drinks it.

Then straight up to bed. I usually have to go in once or twice because he rolls around a lot when he is dropping off and gets tangled.

There have been times when he just wouldn't sleep so we popped him in the pram in the living room and rocked him til he slept, not often tho.

[midori1999]

elphaba nonsense. In fact, if you looked back through my threads over the last 18 months you'd see that I haven't just 'got lucky', there have been times I have been utterly exhausted and at the end of my tether and actually, the first time DD wears even able to go for a walk in her pram was when she was about three months old, she wouldn't nap or sleep during the day (and often at night) unless she was held until about 7 months old and it was hit and miss for a while after that. However, I believe CC is damaging (even in the short term, studies have shown that when babies stop crying their cortisol levels remain the same as when they were crying, which backs up the theory they have just learnt crying is pointless, they aren't 'settled') and so I won't leave my child to cry, it's simply not an option for me. It doesn't make me a perfect parent, but please don't think that anyone who refuses to do CC just 'got lucky'.

If others want to do CC and feel the potential problems or harm it may do are outweighed by the problems caused by lack of sleep for their family, that's their decision. However, most people seem to justify it by saying there are no negatives, no proven evidence etc. the fact is, we just don't know for sure.

[ElphabaTheGreen]

Yes, AmberSocks you have been incredibly lucky. I co-sleep and feed/cuddle to sleep and I haven't had a block of sleep longer than 2.5 hours in months. 'Gentle' methods just do not work for some babies.

[ElphabaTheGreen]

'...please don't think that anyone who refuses to do CC just got lucky.'

Sorry...struggling to see where I said that. Oh, I didn't.

I was inferring that anyone who has beautifully sleeping babies from early on, and then go on to use that as an illustration as to why CC is Evil and Unnecessary, has got lucky. It has nothing whatsoever to do with whatever techniques they may or may not have employed from early infancy.

PS Babies also get raised cortisol levels, which remain high for several hours, when they go to a different house (e.g. grandparents, friends or other family) or when they get taken out in the pram. Should we stop doing those things too? This excellent blog goes exhaustively into the research that has been done - both for and against. There hasn't been any study which has proven conclusively that CC/CIO causes lasting damage. Temporarily stresses the baby, yes. Permanently damages them, no.

[catgirl1976geesealaying]

I did look at the studies around raised cortisol

Unfortuantly the 2 main ones making headlines recently were very flawed for a number of reasons.

I really hate bad science

There was a study by Oliver James recently that caused great headlines around childcare raising cortisol and therefore damaging children.

That study was hugely flawed (no control group for a start) and showed very slight increases in cortisol when children were at nursery than when they were at home. Which isn't really a surprise - everything we do produces cortisol. Waking up provides a nice big peak, as does excercise.

Cortisol is also potrayed in the media a A Bad Thing. It isn't - we need it. High levels over a sustained period will cause problems, yes (as will low levels, in fact you'll get Addison's disease for starters) but not over a short period. Some studies have found that higher cortisol levels result in improved mental performance, but those studies don't make the press as they don't make as good scare-mongering, mother-guilt-inducing headlines.

If anyone on here would say "Well I wouldn't do something to my child if a study showed it would raise thier cortisol levels by 40%. I wouldn't risk that." I would be very interested to hear them.

Because studies show breastfeeding as oppossed to formula feeding does just that. Which didn't stop me breastfeeding and I doubt it would have stopped a lot of people on here. But take a much smaller increase of cortisol that may be caused by CC and people jump on it as a Terrible Thing that will damage a child and must be avoided at all costs.

Knowing there is no conclusive evidence that it does not harm is of course, not as good as if there was conclusive evidence that CC does no harm. I agree we don't know for sure either way, but the cortisolstudies bandied about are very flawed.

[TeWiSavesTheDay]

I completely agree with you OP. I also hate bad science, particularly when it's used as a stick to beat exhausted parents with.

This won't help specifically but I signed up to be the earth mother type - my DD has never slept in a co-sleeping situation. From birth she would stay awake if co-sleeping, (except oddly on the sofa, but that isn't safe)
Any kind of being in the room but not holding her, or rapid return made her completely and utterly inconsolable and hysterical to the extent that she wouldn't settle when you picked her up but just kept screaming.
So we tried CC. Except we never had to get to the controlled part because within 5mins she'd gone to sleep on her own. If she ever didn't I could guarantee she was ill.

My DS is completely different, has no trouble going to sleep but likes to wake up frequently to breastfeed. The thing that solved that was a month of DH sat with him and a bottle of water in the middle of the night and nerves of steel.

A massive part of being a parent is recognising that what works for your child might not be the thing you read a book about and being opened minded enough to try something else.

I hope the ideas you've been given on this thread help, OP.

[catgirl1976geesealaying]

Thank you TeWi

I wish I had had a baby who just went to sleep of his own accord, or could be rocked asleep for ten minutes and then would stay asleep. Or who responded to pick up / put down or a different method, but like yours all these things made him more distressed and resulted in him not sleeping. I loved the co-sleeping we did until he was 9 months and wish it had been pratical for him and for us to continue.

I would never tell another parent CC is the right answer for them. It has (up until the last week) been the only thing that worked for us and DS. I wouldn't even expect it to be the thing that works for any subsequent babies. They are all different.

There has been some really helpful advice on this thread which I have appreciated. T
he unhelpful...well I suppose it is AIBU and people have strong views. It must be nice to be so certain about your own parenting you feel entitled to use it to try to hurt others who are just trying to do thier best. Although I can't imagine getting any sort of satisfaction from doing that myself and wonder why someone would feel the need to do so.................

[Zara1984]

Have read this post with interest OP!

Arrrgh will people just quit it with the sniffy CC is evil bollocks? There's no good science to prove it causes any harm. There is an infinite spectrum of children's personalities and sleep habits, just as there is an infinite spectrum of adult personalities and sleep habits. Do what works!

People that slavishly say a particular parenting technique is wrong or cruel need a hard dose of reality. I was like this before I had DS. BF was the best, FF was poison and for lazy parents! What a fool I was. Fast forward to DS refusing to latch and I now have a very happy health FF boy

I believe the applicable saying here is: pride comes before a fall!

[catgirl1976geesealaying]

Zara

I had so many rules and hard opinions before I had DS

Bless my DM, she never said a word, she just smiled and nodded

[Moominsarescary]

The slow retreat method worked with us in regards to getting ds3 to drop of on his own when first put to bed. We just never found anything that worked if he woke up in the middle of the night!

He was 16 months before retreating worked though so you may find in a couple of months things that haven't worked for you in the past start to work once he is a little older.

I know it doesn't help right now though and constant wakings and not going down to sleep are bloody awful. I'm hoping that our 2 weeks of all night sleeping last as we have another baby due in 5 weeks

[marriedandwreathedinholly]

Different. Abies need different methods and you are all doing the hard yards. If it's any consolation our ds didn't sleep, had formula from 8 weeks, a dummy, a mum with pnd, a daily sweetie ration from far too young, was yelled at and once or twice even smacked.

None of that stopped him reaching 6'2", playing for the firt XV and bringing us home 11 A*s - might explain his A I suppose.

But what they need is love, nurture, a bit of security and buckets of encouragement - the rest of it are theories sometimes written by mothers; sometimes not and they all ebb and flow with fashion and the latest mantra.

One thing I do promise - by the time they are older teenagers you will be awake for half the night wondering where they are or rudely awoken at 2 or 3am as they stumble in slamming the door with or without two mates. Cherish the days when they wake you and you know where they are. Wd wink but haven't worked it out on phone :).

[Moominsarescary]

Agree married ds1 is 18 in five weeks, and yep to the worrying and being woken up at 2.

Unfortunately he also wakes the toddler up some nights too!

[marriedandwreathedinholly]

Oh moomins - a double whammy - do you find the two year old easier with extra years of experience. I had mine quite late and can't imagine having a two year old now - or coping with the exhaustion of a wee one.

[BasicallySFB]

This thread like so many others has made me incredibly grateful that, while 2 year old DS has never napped properly, he does sleep at night and has since @ 10 months. Those first 10 months, with a tiny DS hanging off me on 5 hours broken sleep ALL DAY were trying. But - and here's the big but - it has Nothing at all to do with me or DH or any methods - it's just his nature and we're very very lucky and grateful.

He does have a very solid bedtime routine including our Night Night time - so after bath / creams (v bad infantile psoriasis) / PJ's / story, he gets in his cot, finds his Ted Ted (comforter - Bettine Bear from Mothercare, every child I've ever met loves them), snuggled down, nightlight on, lamp off, then we have 3 rounds of 'Love You' 'Byebyeeee'. We never deviate from this, BuT don't have a set time as he's in nursery 2 days a week and later home.

On the 'no' issue - DS did exactly the same. Using different words (hot / dangerous / arghhhhh that's my clean washing stop drawing on it with my sharpie) worked well. NO is for dire life or death things like running toward road and he stops straight away.

I really really hope you get a solution that works FOR YOU ALL. I frigging hate the way parenting decisions get polarised. Surely we're all at the mercy of our DC - their not robots who all work to the same routine / style / technique.

Good luck OP.