to wonder how employees get away with paying their staff under £15k?

[KenAdams]

I've just been looking at jobs and I'm shocked at how many pay under £15k!

Surely that's not enough to buy a house in most areas of the country or afford rent on an average family house as well as food, bills, nursery fees etc?

I live in a relatively cheap area and full time nursery fees alone are around £800. How can people be expected to afford that on low wages? It's no wonder that some people really are better off on benefits, which is really sad.

I don't know how low your income has to be to get help from the government but surely there needs to be a big rise in minimum wage in order to meet living costs now?

[GhostShip]

And you know this... how?

Under 25's cannot claim tax credits, unless they have a child. But that does not mean that they all claim tax credits. Some won't know about them, some will want to be under the radar. Whatever reason, there will be people out there with children, living on that wage, with no top ups.
If it needs to be done it can be. Simple as.

And its funny how you say that obviously I can survive on 15k without children.
I then replied I have no children, but survive on only 13.5k. Would a baby cost 1.5k a year?

[JackThePumpkinKing]

Read my posts properly. I said that of course it was possible if you don't have a child.

Yes. If you are working and need childcare then that's way more than £1.5k a year (unless you are lucky enough to have free childcare).

There may well be people in other parts of the country that can do it, yes. But if you're earning less than £1k a month and your rent is £700, then it isn't possible, no. Especially if you have to pay childcare as well. Even wraparound care for school can cost £15 a day where I am.

But then it's a moot point - because anybody in this situation will be eligible for tax credits.

[dreamingofsun]

our first baby cost over 10k a year and that was 19 years ago. its called childcare.

[porpentine]

HappyMummy - we agree that charity is a rotten solution to child poverty. .

Fred - a few people have suggested that child poverty is a result of parental moral failing: that's pretty clearly what HappyMummy is suggesting above and both Scrazy and GhostShip argued it was the result of parents not prioritising their children's needs.

As I understand it, there clearly is a marked increase in this country as elsewhere in food insecurity - not just the Save the Children Report but the increase in food banks and in the demand for them - and it seems frankly perverse not to connect this to the world economic situation. I can't see that poor British families - and by poor, as I said, I mean inability to provide the basics of warmth and food - are less poor simply because they live in a country where many people also have nice TVs.

[GhostShip]

And you read mine properly, which you haven't because you haven't answered my question.

There will be women out there, who aren't claiming tax credits, who earn 15k and have a child. How do you know there aren't? Very naive. I know people who do. So I'm pretty sure that there'll be people in your town who do.

Childcare isn't always an issue, some people don't have to pay it, some workplaces have creches.

It's a pointless argument this anyway, but its silly to say its impossible when its reality for people.

[expatinscotland]

I think it should be illegal to pay under 21s or under 18s anything less than NMW. The days when adult children could live at home with Mum and Dad are evaporating.

[BertieBotts]

A baby may well cost 1.5k a year or more in childcare!

Even if you take childcare out of the equation, you'll probably want an extra bedroom which will probably add at least £150-200 per month to renting costs and a chunk onto your council tax. Then you'll need clothes, nappies, extra food (including formula costs if you don't/can't breastfeed), a buggy or sling (at least one but most people find they need a couple of options), a car seat (the two most expensive kinds in the first year), a cot or at least a new mattress for one, and you'll go stir crazy at home so you'll want some money for activities to do, and toys. If you don't live right in the centre of town then cost of running a car may increase or bus/train fares. Your utilities will increase as a result of doing more washing, cooking, washing up/dishwashers and just generally having an extra person consuming water and using electricity.

And that's just the first year - when they get older clothes get more expensive, you have to buy shoes at £30 a pair, their toy preferences get vastly more expensive (games consoles, scooters, bikes, ipods, mobile phones!) and their appetite. Plus school trips, uniform, books, extracurricular activities (some of which might be in school, like swimming or music classes) and fundraising, and their furniture needs will increase too to things like beds, bookcases, toy and clothes storage, a desk, maybe a bigger dining table/sofa.

Children are expensive Makes me wonder what I spent money on before I had one!

[BertieBotts]

I agree expat - it's silly to segregate minimum wage by age. It's like in times gone by women would have been paid much less than men because they were expected to be working for pin money whereas the man had a family to support. Over 21s aren't the only group supporting themselves any more.

[BertieBotts]

Of course people survive on 15k a year, because they have to - my point was that to think you can compare 13.5k without children to 15k with children is misguided. It might be doable but there will be a big difference in lifestyle.

[JackThePumpkinKing]

Which question?

How do they manage then? Genuine question. Do they live with parents, or have free childcare? Creche? Heh - yes, I suppose they exist somewhere, but I've never come across them in a workplace.

Maybe there are a handful of people who struggle by on 15k or less with kids, without claiming anything. I was saying that unless you have some sort of help with housing costs or childcare then you just wouldn't have enough to pay your bills. Maybe you could houseshare? Very difficult to find a situation like that if you have kids though.

[JackThePumpkinKing]

And don't call me naive. You're the one who thinks a child costs less than 1.5k a year :)

[GhostShip]

No you wasn't saying that at all, you were saying no-one possibly does it. You didn't say anything about housing costs and childcare. You said no-one with a child can live in your city on that wage.

I said they can, which they do.

And the child costing 1.5k a year didn't include childcare, because it was my example and I wouldn't need it.

[JackThePumpkinKing]

I earn about £15k btw. I'd be entitled to a significant chunk of HB and WTC/CTC if I were a lone parent, so I'd claim them. I don't really see why you'd not claim them

[GhostShip]

Personally I'd claim them if I were eligible so I agree, but some people want to be under the radar so to speak.

[TiggyD]

Avoid nurseries then. Some trainees that will be looking after your children get as little as £2.65 per hour.

[JackThePumpkinKing]

Well, you'd pay tax and NI on that extra 1.5k, so take a big chunk off that.

No, I suppose I didn't really spell it out i a really really clear way. I said in this city you wouldn't be able to do it. I stupidly thought that by saying 'living in this city' that covered things like housing costs



As an example - my sisters very average 2 bed flat is £900pcm. Yes, she could live in a 1bed, but she still wouldn't be able to pay her bills without tax credits etc.

[GhostShip]

Sorry I meant help towards housing costs, not housing costs.

[JackThePumpkinKing]

But yes, I completely agree that it is possible if you live at home, or have free childcare, or similar! I never disputed that

[TheReturnOfBridezilla]

I lived on a smidge over 15k for a few years when I was younger. No benefits but no children or car and in a houseshare in the town I worked in so no travel costs.

I managed, in fact I had a ball. Sometimes I had to choose between a night out and a pair of work shoes when mine had holes in or replacing a kettle or paying my phone bill or something like that and sometimes the night out won but in those days it was fun. For lots of people it really isn't.

I now earn quite a lot more, am married, have a mortgage, children, a car and don't know how anyone can have a secure, responsible life on that amount. If your washing machine breaks, you're screwed. If you miscalculate your bill dates, you get bank charges which take you months to recover from. I couldn't handle that level of insecurity now I have children.

[Scrazy]

I have just gone through entitled.com. I said I was a single mother, 1 child, not working paying the same council tax that I paid when I was a single mum a couple of years ago and an average rent. It says I would have an income of £1294 per month. Council tax is £120 and rent £500. How would anyone not have enough to feed/clothe an adult and a child out of £155 a week left after housing costs? It's not possible to be short of food unless you are prioritizing other things.

I have always worked full time and my example above is receiving not much less than I was working, the difference was I had a smaller mortgage but had to run a car to get to work. Swings and roundabouts I wasn't much better off but could afford to feed and clothe us.

[JackThePumpkinKing]

Yes, that's net income though.

[JackThePumpkinKing]

And you've left off bills.

[JackThePumpkinKing]

Sorry - didn't mean to be short/rude. Posting from phone

Its actually a pretty good illustration. Entitled to says you would get £1294 per month to live on - you'd have to earn just over £18 a year to get that kind of net monthly income.

[Scrazy]

Yes, I earned about that when I was a single parent. So that illustrates that it's not possible to live off less than 15K unless you are a single young person sharing housing cost.

I know all about bills to run a home. I have paid them all my adult life.

I'm all for social security but child starvation in the UK, provided everything is being claimed, needs intervention from social services not more benefits thrown at the family because clearly, something is wrong. It might just be a debt counseling issue.

[JackThePumpkinKing]

Like I said, didn't mean to be rude. Was distracted and posting from my phone