To wonder why so many honour killings happen in Islamic countries when Islam preaches peace?

[Mooblies]

Also, how could a parent who loves their child consider killing them for honour, or do the people that commit them not really love their children?

[Mooblies]

MrsDeVere - Good post

[simplesusan]

You could have a point Mooblies. Also I dislike how the media make such big issues about women who are murdered by someone other than immediate family or husband/partner, as if "let that be a lesson to you women, daring to venture out alone." Yet when then violence is committed by a husband/relative the issue is swept under the carpet almost.

[GrrrArghZzzz]

You answered your own question, even in countries without the coverings there are problems (and Turkey,which you mentioned previously, does not allow coverings in many public settings).

It is also important to remember that in Iran and Taliban-controlled areas of Afghanistan, both countries known for their laws about covering up, those countries were far more liberal 30 years ago. There are far more political reasons why they are like they are today and they aren't all to do with Islam (Western countries used Islamic fundamentalists as fighters to dis-stabilize the countries when they were swinging away from them. Iran because of oil - they were going to nationalise and Western countries including Britain, tired of stealing it, made it more likely to sell it to us, Afghanistan because the US didn't like them being buddies with Russia or the idea communism in their block). Our countries have us much blood on our hands on women's rights as they do.

[mathanxiety]

Women and girls are by law second class citizens in most countries that call themselves Islamic. The religiously inspired law in most Islamic countries expressly condemns women to a secondary civic role and accords them very few personal civil rights. Until someone with stature in the Islamic religion stands up and cries foul I think it can be assumed that there is only one opinion on the subject of what rights women are entitled to in the Islamic world.

Sadly, given that (Saudi) Wahhabi-inspired fundamentalist thought is gradually taking over the Islamic world (this is the aim of Wahhabism -- promoting unity of Muslims by silencing other trains of thought), we can only look forward to more covered women, more campaigns for Sharia law alongside western civil law, no progress in women's civil and human rights in areas dominated by Islam, more acid attacks and honour killings and restrictions on the freedom of women and girls..

Whether DV remains a problem or not in the west, it is still a far better place to be a girl or a woman than anywhere dominated by Wahhabi-influenced fundamentalist Islam. Western values still leave an opportunity for women to seek justice based on the equal value of each individual. Not so elsewhere.

The French have nailed their colours to the mast on the issue of veiled women and have been criticised by many wet sorts, unfairly imo. I think they have seen the symbolism of women wearing the veil for what it is, a mockery of western freedom.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

No, I think the fact that women and children are valued as property is what dehumanizes and demotes them in the minds of those who will hurt and kill them.

There is no such thing as Honour Killing, there is child abuse, domestic violence and murder. There is no honour in these crimes.

[mathanxiety]

The increase in covering is all down to the spread of Wahhabism, paid for by Saudi oil revenue, not to a natural or predictable repugnance for US values.

The US didn't help the case for western values by its widespread interference in political affairs in South Asia and the Middle East; its support for the Mujaheddin has definitely come back to bite it on the bum, and the full effects of the CIA's Iranian adventure have yet to be seen, but it is Saudi money that has promoted the rise of fundamentalism, not in Iran, where Islam tends to be of the Shia variety, and where today women tend not to be as veiled as they were during the first days of the Khomeini revolution, but in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and increasingly in Egypt but Egypt is not going down without a struggle. The Saudis are Sunnis.

[mathanxiety]

The use of the term honour is a semantic issue. The word can't be used to dismiss the religious element from the act of murder for reasons of honour.

Women are seen as property because of the religious view of the destiny of men and the religious view of relations between men and women, and especially because of the view that life is less important than what happens after it. If life is just a series of potholes and potential wrong turns on the way to paradise then nobody's life is worth anything. If a man's duty is to be the patriarch and to make sure the women under his patronage get to paradise and this is seen as the only thing his life will be measured by, then you can see where it might lead.

[Mooblies]

mathanxiety - great post

[thegreylady]

Interesting to see Mooblies comment about Turkey and dv. My son is married to a lovely Turkish woman.He has lived in Turkey since 1992 and I have got to know the extended family very well indeed.I have never ever seen any evidence of dv and the children are without exception loved and indulged.The parents tend to be protective of the older girls but they go out together and in mixed groups,wear Western clothes and socialise.There isnt much if any alcohol and no drugs except tobacco but it is a happy society.My dd-i-l's sister was offered an arranged marriage but when she didn't like the bloke that was fine.She is now married happily to a man of her choosing.
The family is Muslim but totally tolerant of Christianity-they say there is only a thin line between us-they revere Jesus as a prophet.

[Mooblies]

Statistically, Turkey has a terrible DV record

here

and here

[mathanxiety]

Turkey's poor record on honour killings and ineffective protection of women's rights are stumbling blocks to membership of the EU.

[Brycie]

The difference between so-called honour killing and domestic violence is that it is carried out in the name of religion (although it does have more of a cultural basis). It is wrong to compare it to domestic violence, as if the same "solutions" could be applied.

[Brycie]

In other words, yes math. What you said.

[Brycie]

I don't think it really matters that this may be an adolescent phase of Islam - it's still wrong and should not be tolerated, excused or qualified. I have not brought my daughter into the world to see values of equality reversed and the women around her suffering because of that.

[Jinsei]

But I don't think honour killings are carried out in the name of religion. They are carried out in the name of family honour, which is a cultural construction. This simply isn't an Islamic issue - that's not to say that the problem isn't real, but it's every bit as real in the Sikh and Hindu communities of northern India, where the status of women is equally poor. If we focus on it as a religious issue, I think we lose sight of the real problem.

[Mooblies]

Brycie -

[Jinsei]

And I agree with MrsDeVere (as always)! These killings do not take place in normal, loving families but in violent, abusive families.

[mathanxiety]

Family honour is bound up with upholding the religion.

The honour of the family consists in the degree to which the religion is observed, and in the case of girls murdered by their families, they have offended the religion by doing things that are unacceptable from a religious pov, such as looking at boys riding motor scooters (recent case from Kashmir). Claims are not made for the killings the way terrorist organisations claim they planted such and such a bomb, etc., but the 'reasons' put forth by defendants and the findings of investigations reveal the religious inspiration. Religion and personal identity are closely bound together for many Muslim men and women. A person's relationship with god is the primary one in many parts of the Islamic world; western, enlightenment-cum-Freudian ideas have not become part of the currency of how people see themselves. Religion dominates people's self perception. It shapes their view of relationships and gender roles. It is not a western way of thinking at all.

The vast majority of honour killings happen in Islamic societies. They far outnumber those in societies where Hindus and Sikhs predominate and government seems more willing and able to do something about it in India than in neighbouring Pakistan for example. The different response of Hindus and Sikhs to that of Muslims when faced with western life shows in the different educational attainment levels of children with Indian ethnicity and those with Bangladeshi and Pakistani ethnicity in the UK educational system -- both boys and girls of Hindu ethnicity tend to do better than Muslims. It also shows in the almost complete absence of honour killings in Hindu families in the west compared to notable prevalence in Muslim families. The difference in adaptation seems to come about because of religiously inspired values.

Hindu and Sikh honour killings are of course also bound up with notions of what is acceptable behaviour for women and the notion that what one's womenfolk do reflects badly on the status of a male head of family. The degree to which the status of a male head of family relies on the marriageability of the women seems to correlate with the lack of formal secular education and thus poverty everywhere. But there is not an intractable religious foundation to the place of women in Hindu and Sikh society, openly preached and openly enforced by the sort of agents you find in the Islamic world -- the morality police of Saudi Arabia for instance.

[Jinsei]

Some interesting stats about perceptions of "honour" among British Asians can be found here

[Jinsei]

Oops, posted too soon. Meant to say that these figures don't back up the view that "honour" is a preoccupation for Muslims living in the west but not those of other faiths.

Also, I'm not sure how much the Indian government is actually doing to combat these issues. They seem to be failing to bring about much change in any case. And a recent suggestion from a northern Indian politician to address the growing problem of rape and sexual violence was to reduce the legal age at which girls could marry.

[pinkoyster]

I've read this thread with interest, and agree with the majority of posters that the issue is cultural rather than religious. I definitely think it should be discussed rather than swept under the carpet though, for fear of offending a certain group of people.

mathanxiety, the Wahabi-influenced Islam you describe is a SECT of Islam. There are many sects (sunni, shia, wahabi, ismaili, ithnaasheri, darvishi) and they all disagree with each other on key points. Wahabi's are seen as being particularly extreme, and apart from Saudi Arabia, and small pockets of followers around the world, are definitely in the minority of Islam. I don't think we need to worry about them 'taking over the Islamic world' just yet!

Having been in a long-term relationship with an Iranian prior to DH, and exposed to many muslims throughout my youth, I can say they are good, and bad. Like any Christian I've met. Like any Jew I've met. So why the need to concentrate on the religion rather then the type of people who carry out these killings?

[mathanxiety]

Treating them differently from common or garden DV won't work, I agree with that. And I agree that in a loving family nothing like this would happen, no matter what the religious views of the family were.

However, not to acknowledge the part religion plays in forming the self perception of the men involved is a mistake. Religiosity involves making your female family members tow the line regardless of the civil law consequences for you. Shame is not the prevention because religiosity is a badge of pride. This is why religion makes it more complicated than 'western' DV to tackle.

Clearly there is nothing to be gained in this world from killing your own beautiful daughter in the fullness of her life. You will go to prison and your child will be dead and buried. But people who do this are not really focused on this world.

[mathanxiety]

The aim of the Wahhabi sect is to take over the Islamic world. It is the power behind the throne in Saudi Arabia and there is no reason to believe religious influence and political power would not go hand in hand if it were to reach tipping point and attain power elsewhere.

It is completely intolerant of any other sects in Islam (Shi'ites, etc.), and Judaism and Christianity are in its sights too. Muslims who are not following the strict Wahhabi way are not considered true Muslims but enervators, or 'claimants to Islam'. In the 1970s oil revenue started funding the rise and rise of Wahhibism around the world. To date billions have been spent establishing mosques and madrassas and training clerics.

[Brycie]

Yes, they are cultural and to do with family honour, but the belief system informing that is religious. Family honour is tied up with the belief system, marrying outside the religion or religious caste. I don't think it ignores the problem to ignore that, Mrs DeVere.