to think we can't give today's children the childhood we had (nor expect the respect we showed our parents...?)

[LieInsAreRarerThanTigers]

A thread the other day got me thinking how often I have said to dd "I have never spoken to my mother like that in my life and I'm 40-blah!" I think I am really similar in temperament to my mum and have brought my dc up in quite a similar way, yet neither dh nor I seem to get much respect at all from our dc.

Apart from the lottery of genetics, personalities, nature v nurture and all that, are the outside influences, peer pressure, technology, cable TV, Facebook, etc just too great? Are we fighting a losing battle when trying to give our dc a proper childhood and command respect and obedience from them?

Would be especially interested to hear views from people who have decided against having TV, internet (for dc!), video games etc.

Only read the op, will read the rest when I have more time...

I think we make a mistake in trying to give children the same upbringing that we had. Of course, basic principles of respect for self and others are timeless, but our children are living now. to try to ignore all the outside influences that technology, tv, etc etc bring to our childrens attitudes is to ignore the context in which they are living. I think we need to be working to teach ourselves and our children how to cope with the myriad of opinion and information we're all subject to and to apply it to our own lives and beliefs.

My dd will be subject to more/different opinions and values to those that featured in my own childhood, but I hope that they will have the confidene in themselves to know what they think.

I also think that respect for parents (as respect for anyone else) is earned to some degree, and that 'obedience' is for puppies.

My mum always said you get the children you deserve - so I made her life hell......

I wouldn't give a dog the childhood I had

and I am the sort of parent who exists in reaction to it and wants to give my children all the experiences I didn't have

they are rude and hard to manage sometimes, in some contexts, and I am probably too wet

but they are also enchanting, confident and funny, and can both be altruistic and considerate.

Like Fennel, I would rather have children with challenging behaviour than children who fear me. I can't stand the idea of being feared. I flinched if my mother or stepfather moved quickly near me. I couldn't live like that with my children.

Thanks for all your interesting posts. I do think a lot of my own problems must be down to personalities, as neither of my children are by nature anything like me or dh were. (Peace-loving, accepting of authority, all my parents' requests seemed pretty reasonable to me and I can honestly remember getting told off only on a few occasions!) Even as a teen I didn't rebel all that much, except for smoking 'secretly' but there was very little confrontation. I think I only raised my voice to my mum or dad a couple of times in my late teens, and with my dad it was a political argument.

Where we live I am able to let them play outside - it was one of the main things which drew us here, so that's not much different.

The main difference in the actual upbringing is more to do with all the outside influences I have mentioned, and all the material things which most children seem to amass, greater availability of what were once considered a rare treat, e.g. cinema (I probably went 2 or 3 times pre age 11?) theme parks (didn't exist!)
Are children now just plain spoilt and take all this stuff for granted?
I am afraid I may be guilty of creating this situation. We are not wealthy by any means but we can afford all this stuff for them and that can make it a bit harder to say no. (Still they seem to have fewer DVDs, games etc than many friends' children.) It's not unusual for 11 or 12 year olds, even younger ones, to have iPhones or Blackberries.

Some children do still behave very well and respect their parents. My children are grown up. But whenever I hear someone say how children these days don't behave as well as children in the past did, I always think of my 2 nieces and 3 nephews.

There were all brought up as strictly as I was when I was a young child and are all well behaved like myself and my siblings were.
I do think though some things have changed.

1. Divorce: Divorce is way more common than it used to be. Not every parent does this, but I have seen parents be far too lenient with younger children for 1 or 2 years after a divorce. Parents have also confessed to me that they know they are guilty of this because they feel so guilty about the divorce. So children get away with things they shouldn't and then it gets harder to pull children back into line.

1. No Smacking: Lots of parents don't want to smack anymore - which is fine - but don't know what to do instead with children misbehaving. They might half heartedly try to do punishments like the naughty step, but from what I have seen, more frequently they tell their children off, but there are no punishments for children who ignore this.

1. Other adults: When I was young other adults would tell children off for things they did wrong. Now that is a big no no and lots of parents would be angry if a stranger did this. But I think it helped to pull children into line.

1. Being Your Child's Friend: I don't like very formal relationships between parents and children as there were in some families in the past. Its good to play with children and for them to feel they can talk to you about things. But I think some parents go too far and try to be their parents friend rather than their mum or dad. So I have heard parents say they don't want to tell their young child off as their child might not like them.

Of course tv has impact. But IMO the factors above are more important.

Aah, someone's mentioned the S-word!
I definitely don't want to create a smacking debate but I do think you might have a point that people are not sure how to punish/impose sanctions when necessary. I have tried to do it by warnings, counting and then carrying out a threat which would involve taking away computer/TV time or refusing a lift somewhere, a shopping trip etc. I have wavered on cancelling things which would affect other people, like parties, sleepovers etc.

Actually I think Lesley33 is spot on - if you were to smack a child, that's it over. It requires very little effort, it's done spur of the moment as they misbehave and is easily enforced.

Naughty step, pocket money sanctions. no TV etc all require a lot more effort from the parent.

They speak rudely because they are allowed to. You can often hear a DC talk politely to a teacher and then turn around and speak rudely to a parent-I don't think they even know they are doing it.

Mine are very kind, polite and respectful. Largely, I've been lucky.

However, I'm also 'thoughtfully strict'. By this, I mean I don't say no just for the sake of it and I don't have ridiculous expectations. Reasonable requests and behaviours are met with respect. However, bad behaviour is punished. I don't treat tantrums or rudeness as 'trying to tell me something' or 'big emotions'.

I don't push them, but I'm not inclined to allow them to give up without consideration either. For example, DS takes piano lessons. He is only 5 (he requested them). While I don't make him sit at the piano for hours on end, I wouldn't encourage quitting just because he didn't feel like going one week (my own parents would have).

What I say goes, but I don't ask them to do things simply for the sake of it. DD1 and DS have chores and even DD2 helps put her toys away.

I restrict (but don't ban) television.

At this point, 99% of the time they do as asked without delay, but they have plenty of time to rebel yet!

LOL at this: "My mum always said you get the children you deserve - so I made her life hell....."

Hmm I don't know I'm thinking about this thread and I have to say, I don't find my DC's hard work, rude etc. Fennel's and Wordfactory's posts have the most resonance with me, I too find that most of the time my kids are respectful, polite, considerate etc. Yes they can be insolent at times, but they know that's not acceptable and they also know that there are proper sanctions. I agree with Exoticfruits (don't fall over EF! ) that they are rude because they are allowed to be - it's not that they don't know how to talk politely and that they don't know that insolence is out of order, they tailor their language, behaviour etc., to the company they're in and what they know they can get away with. Having said that, they're not teenagers yet so I'm aware that the shit could hit the fan big-time when they reach that age.

Re the point about not having recourse to smacking so therefore having to be a more creative, resourceful parent in terms of finding sanctions, I think northerngirl is right - smacking was so much easier. But I don't think it's a bad thing that parents are expected to work a bit harder at parenting tbh - let's face it, there was a mountain of bloody appalling parenting throughout history which was just seen as the norm and a parent's right to treat their DC's however they want. I don't think it's a bad thing that parents of each generation are questioning themselves more about how to parent well. It does mean there will be fuck-ups - we will make mistakes, of course we will, particularly where we haven't got a blue-print of how to parent effectively without recourse to repression and instilling fear, but I think it's worth it.