to think we can't give today's children the childhood we had (nor expect the respect we showed our parents...?)

[LieInsAreRarerThanTigers]

A thread the other day got me thinking how often I have said to dd "I have never spoken to my mother like that in my life and I'm 40-blah!" I think I am really similar in temperament to my mum and have brought my dc up in quite a similar way, yet neither dh nor I seem to get much respect at all from our dc.

Apart from the lottery of genetics, personalities, nature v nurture and all that, are the outside influences, peer pressure, technology, cable TV, Facebook, etc just too great? Are we fighting a losing battle when trying to give our dc a proper childhood and command respect and obedience from them?

Would be especially interested to hear views from people who have decided against having TV, internet (for dc!), video games etc.

[Fennel]

My children have watched plenty of Horrid Henry and Tracey Beaker, but we have a very clear distinction between what they might watch or read, and what's acceptable behaviour. It's not that hard to distinguish between fiction and real life. I think I find it impossible to tolerate someone speaking rudely to me, so I just automatically react strongly if a child does. When I was a child it was much more acceptable for adults to be rude to children or dismiss their views, and I think it's good that that's changed, but I don't see why being more respectful of children's feelings means we have to let them trample all over ours.

[bruffin]

But I think that is more the parents influence or lack of than the tv.

[HerBeX]

I don't want to give my kids the same childhood I had, thanks

And I don't want mindlessly obedient kids either. I want questioning, happy, confident children with good self-esteem, genuine respect for others (rather than strategic respect given as and where there's a reward for it) and critical thinking skills.

I didn't get that from my upbringing.

[somethingwitty82]

what makes me sad is how few children you see playing outside, doing practical stuff.

I was allowed to roam for miles, ride my bike in the woods, visit the reservoir but then when i were young the had saturday pictures and where the houses are it was all fields :(

[HerBeX]

When my kids play outside, the neighbour but one comes out and shouts at them.

But she also lights bonfires on a blazing hot Saturday afternoon and has arguments with neighbours about parking in their drives, so I discount her.

[LieInsAreRarerThanTigers]

I really wonder if a 7 year old can make the distinction between something like Tracy B and real life? We did try to explain to her that it was about children who had had very difficult times, not like the loving home she had, and it was not ok for her to copy the way children on there talked to adults, but it didn't seem to sink in.
Also I find that with ds who is nearly 5 years younger than her it is so much harder - trying to protect him from her influence and that of the things she watches.
I wonder do parents on average set out to be generally less strict these days or do they just get worn down over time and give in?

[LieInsAreRarerThanTigers]

HerBeX there are days when I would happily accept mindless obedience over what actually happens!

[HerBeX]

[Laquitar]

Hmm my children see me and dh help and respect our parents, aunts/uncles as well as older people on bus/tube, shops.

I often take them with me if i go to a pensioner's to change a plug or something and/or chat to them for half hour.

I am positive and i dont care about the media influence. As the parent i influence them more.

It is all well to blame the media, the shops, the weather, the moon. But if you say 'that old bitch in the street touched my baby' or 'i screamed abuse to my mum because she gave dd a biscuit' or ' why should i drive 10 min to visit my IL's' ..... well then don't be surprised if your dcs do the same one day.

[LieInsAreRarerThanTigers]

Well, as I said in my OP I treat my parents with a lot of respect and I am puzzled at why, aged 11 and 6 they are so rude to me. I always pull them up on it without fail, don't just tolerate it, and have imposed sanctions many times.

It's not just my children and my parenting problems I'm thinking about though, it seems to be a culture change. There are many exceptions, I know, but I sometimes see rudeness from children/teens I would expect to know better.

[Oblomov]

I don't agree with Laq's post.
I treat people the way I want to be treated. I don't call people bitches and then expect my kids not to. In many ways i really am exemplary, in the way I do things, thus teach them. Sure I do silly things aswell, things I wish they hadn't seen. but high % is good.
But I still have children who won't do as I ask, answer me back, and quite frankly I am ashamed to take them anywhere. I never behaved the way they do. It makes my stomach churn. Its so wrong it makes me want to vomit. seriously. And when I compare them to other kids, everyone elses kids are the same. But it doesn't mean i have to like it.
So what can i do. It APPERAS to be the norm. Its just, that I don't like it. I think its wrong.

[Laquitar]

Sorry LieIns, i 've just realised that my post seems like attack at you/your OP. It wasn't directed to you, honestly. But i just think that our generation isn't much better really, some very selfish and rude 30-40 yo around too.

[HerBeX]

How old are your kids Oblmov?

Are my kids going to be like that soon?

[Laquitar]

Oblomov, i do see some people who don't treat older ones very well.

And many new parents totally misuse the 'child centred' concept.

[usualsuspect]

I agree with Laquitar ,certainly on MN I have read awful things that some posters say about their parents and PILs ,theres no respect there at all

so how can they expect respect of their own children?

[sims2fan]

I know people who are very kind, very good people, who also treat people how they themselves would want to be treated. They are good to their parents, they are friendly to their neighbours, and they get on with their colleagues.

But, they have children with bad behaviour and they just don't see how it happened. I have an absolutely lovely friend, who would do anything for anyone. By all accounts she herself was a lovely child, and she just can't understand why her 4 year old son misbehaves so much. But, to me, it's obvious. She lets him get away with things that she doesn't think are important, and then she can't get him to stop doing the things she thinks are. When we went to a family friendly pub a few months ago she didn't think it was a problem to let him run around, climb on a sofa, etc, because 'it's really quiet, there's no one here.' No, but now if we go out and there are lots of people around he doesn't understand why it's suddenly not appropriate to run around. When he was 2 she thought it was 'cute' when he said rude things to people, and now that he's 4 and people no longer think it's so cute to hear him tell people who say hello to him to 'go away' she can't get him to stop. Also, as a young toddler she found it funny to teach him to have 'pretend' boxing matches, and laughed when he hit his dad hard, and now he is the child at nursery who is always hitting others, and that from what I have heard is likely to be labelled as the 'naughty boy' who parents won't want their children playing with.

I really do think that parents have to be very strict in the first few years, in a loving but firm way, and then the groundwork has been laid and the children will (usually) know how to behave in any situation as they are growing up.

[Oblomov]

HerBex, for your sanity, I hope not.
Ds1(7), ds2(2).

Agreed, Laquitar.

I am strict-del-la-strict. Infact that could be where i went wrong.

[TheArmadillo]

I definately do not want my children to have the childhood I had. In fact I will go to very long lengths to prevent it happening.

But I do agree with sims2fan

"I really do think that parents have to be very strict in the first few years, in a loving but firm way, and then the groundwork has been laid and the children will (usually) know how to behave in any situation as they are growing up."

ok my oldest is only 6yo but he is beautifully behaved - we rarely have to tell him off and even when we do a mild telling off is enough. Yes we do have to tell him things twice because he wasn't always listening the first time and sometimes he does do things without thinking which are a bit stupid but he's never really deliberately naughty.

However ages 0-4yo were hell at points and very stressful from start to finish. Although he was never nasty he was stubborn, difficult, prone to tantrums, you couldn't take your eyes off him for a minute etc etc (obviously at other times he was lovely). It was extremely hard work and the reason why we didn't have another child until recently. But the hard work did pay off - it was worth it in the end.

I have no idea how he'll behave as a teenager though - I may be in for a shock then. Both me and dh were terrible teens.

Ds has unlimited tv and computer games though we do restrict what he watches and plays - more to do with age appropriateness than any other reason.

I think part of the reason why children are perceived to be so badly behaved is because the ones that are are very loud and noticeable and the ones that are well behaved go largely unnoticed. I'm not saying there are not badly behaved children out there - there are. But I know plenty of well behaved ones too.

[Morloth]

Well there is probably an element of 'in my day...' about it.

I don't have teens yet but I have teenage nieces and they are respectful towards their parents.

I also agree with the previous poster about how what you do early on makes a big difference. We are authoritarian parents I don't put up with half the bullshit I see many on here/RL do. If you let your 5 year old walk all over you then you can't be surprised when your 15 year old does the same.

DS1 is 7 now and has the occasional gobby moment, but it is not tolerated at all. If he speaks to me rudely he is punished, I don't speak to him rudely after all.

[Oblomov]

Like Armadillo and Morloth, I assumed that if I replicated the firm but fair and totally loving childhood I had been given, onto my children, I would end up with a similar happy household. The thing is, I HAVEN'T.
I am firm, but fair. And always have been. But the way ds1 talks to me is disgusting.
And the way I see children talk to their parents generally, everywhere I go, is horrible.
So no, it doesn't appears top be working. Certainly not for me. And I don't think so , in general, from what I see.

[exoticfruits]

Parents often talk to their DC in a dreadful way too. I always treat mine with respect and expect the same back. We have our moments but they are generally polite. I do think that DCs ought to question things-the first being their parents-and not just follow blindly, (however bizarre the views). Too many parents seem to think they can control the thoughts of their DCs.

They could have much more freedom. Even my DS (only 20) has remarked that if he goes on a run about 4.30pm he doesn't see a single DC out playing. Parents are far more fearful than they need to be.

[cory]

tbh I don't think there is much difference in the respect I gave my parents and the respect my children give me. I was allowed to question their decisions but not to swear or make unkind remarks. I was a strong-willed child who believed I knew best but gradually grew to develop an enormous respect for my parents' judgment. My dd seems to following more or less them same path: she was a difficult child, but is growing more and more mature. She is not at risk of mistaking me for the Almighty but she does genuinely believe that you have to treat other human beings decently- and she accepts that I am more or less a human being. And she is growing to realise that life experience counts for something. No doubt she sees my weaknesses but she is usually prepared to be tactful about them. Ds is younger and occasionally pitches things wrong, but I would certainly not say he is out of control.

I do wish I could have given them the freedom to roam I had as a child- but there were no other children to roam with. Otoh they are getting things I would have killed for- dd lives near a drama club, has other friends who love books, has access to Amazon for her pocket money and can watch old films on DVD and is growing up in an environment where other people expect to study and have interesting jobs: where I grew up, being a school teacher was pretty well the only option for a swotty child.

[cory]

Just read the second half of the OP. We didn't have a TV when dd was little, I think we bought it when ds was about 4, but only watched it rarely until he got to around 8 or 9. We did not really introduce video games until they were old enough to buy them with their own pocket money. We have only allowed access to the internet when they got old enough to need it for homework or want it to buy things off Amazon- so we're talking about Yr 6, really.

But I can't really see any difference in behaviour between dd who spends most of her time with her nose in a book and ds who is very into games and television. If anything, ds has always been the gentler, more compliant soul. Perhaps books are too stimulating? You get some terrible behaviour in books, you know.

[Fennel]

Oblomov, can you sit down and talk to your ds about the way he talks? My most challenging child was really hard work for the first few years, and still can be on a bad day, but she has always responded really well to talking about behaviour and feelings. Also my children like the feeling of jointly setting boundaries and discussing them, and suggesting sanctions.

This is one of my various attempts to be firm but NOT LIKE MY GIT OF A FATHER. My siblings and I behaved basically cos we were scared of my bad-tempered, slightly unpredictable father. And as adults we all loathe him and avoid him as much as possible (so I am one of those adults who does not talk very positively about my own parents). I would rather have children who were rude to me than who behaved out of fear, but what we do is keep talking about these things, with our dc I think they feel they have quite a lot of control and autonomy, even though in some ways I am quite strict (on rudeness, on tv and computer time, on doing what they're asked without arguing constantly.

I worry sometimes as I don't want to be authoritarian, but on the other hand I really don't like children, or adults, being horrible and rude to each other and getting away with it. But talking to the dc about the rules and expectations does seem to really help with this.

[wordfactory]

I think my DC are having a much nicer childhood than I did.
Sure, they have less freedom due to where we live, but there are so many other great things they have.

I've always been strict about how much time they spend in front of screens but they watch all the usual stuff that is meant to rot their brains.
I don't howvever allow Facebook or violent video games.

If I say so myself my DC are great.
Well behaved, well mannered, very hard working, motivated and enthusiastic.

They are howver very questioning which can be...a tad tiring. But in the round a good thing, I think.