to think we can't give today's children the childhood we had (nor expect the respect we showed our parents...?)

[LieInsAreRarerThanTigers]

A thread the other day got me thinking how often I have said to dd "I have never spoken to my mother like that in my life and I'm 40-blah!" I think I am really similar in temperament to my mum and have brought my dc up in quite a similar way, yet neither dh nor I seem to get much respect at all from our dc.

Apart from the lottery of genetics, personalities, nature v nurture and all that, are the outside influences, peer pressure, technology, cable TV, Facebook, etc just too great? Are we fighting a losing battle when trying to give our dc a proper childhood and command respect and obedience from them?

Would be especially interested to hear views from people who have decided against having TV, internet (for dc!), video games etc.

[HerBeX]

LOL at this: "My mum always said you get the children you deserve - so I made her life hell....."

Hmm I don't know I'm thinking about this thread and I have to say, I don't find my DC's hard work, rude etc. Fennel's and Wordfactory's posts have the most resonance with me, I too find that most of the time my kids are respectful, polite, considerate etc. Yes they can be insolent at times, but they know that's not acceptable and they also know that there are proper sanctions. I agree with Exoticfruits (don't fall over EF! ) that they are rude because they are allowed to be - it's not that they don't know how to talk politely and that they don't know that insolence is out of order, they tailor their language, behaviour etc., to the company they're in and what they know they can get away with. Having said that, they're not teenagers yet so I'm aware that the shit could hit the fan big-time when they reach that age.

Re the point about not having recourse to smacking so therefore having to be a more creative, resourceful parent in terms of finding sanctions, I think northerngirl is right - smacking was so much easier. But I don't think it's a bad thing that parents are expected to work a bit harder at parenting tbh - let's face it, there was a mountain of bloody appalling parenting throughout history which was just seen as the norm and a parent's right to treat their DC's however they want. I don't think it's a bad thing that parents of each generation are questioning themselves more about how to parent well. It does mean there will be fuck-ups - we will make mistakes, of course we will, particularly where we haven't got a blue-print of how to parent effectively without recourse to repression and instilling fear, but I think it's worth it.

[DaisyLovesMetronidazole]

Mine are very kind, polite and respectful. Largely, I've been lucky.

However, I'm also 'thoughtfully strict'. By this, I mean I don't say no just for the sake of it and I don't have ridiculous expectations. Reasonable requests and behaviours are met with respect. However, bad behaviour is punished. I don't treat tantrums or rudeness as 'trying to tell me something' or 'big emotions'.

I don't push them, but I'm not inclined to allow them to give up without consideration either. For example, DS takes piano lessons. He is only 5 (he requested them). While I don't make him sit at the piano for hours on end, I wouldn't encourage quitting just because he didn't feel like going one week (my own parents would have).

What I say goes, but I don't ask them to do things simply for the sake of it. DD1 and DS have chores and even DD2 helps put her toys away.

I restrict (but don't ban) television.

At this point, 99% of the time they do as asked without delay, but they have plenty of time to rebel yet!

[exoticfruits]

They speak rudely because they are allowed to. You can often hear a DC talk politely to a teacher and then turn around and speak rudely to a parent-I don't think they even know they are doing it.

[northerngirl41]

Actually I think Lesley33 is spot on - if you were to smack a child, that's it over. It requires very little effort, it's done spur of the moment as they misbehave and is easily enforced.

Naughty step, pocket money sanctions. no TV etc all require a lot more effort from the parent.

[LieInsAreRarerThanTigers]

Aah, someone's mentioned the S-word!
I definitely don't want to create a smacking debate but I do think you might have a point that people are not sure how to punish/impose sanctions when necessary. I have tried to do it by warnings, counting and then carrying out a threat which would involve taking away computer/TV time or refusing a lift somewhere, a shopping trip etc. I have wavered on cancelling things which would affect other people, like parties, sleepovers etc.

[lesley33]

Some children do still behave very well and respect their parents. My children are grown up. But whenever I hear someone say how children these days don't behave as well as children in the past did, I always think of my 2 nieces and 3 nephews.

There were all brought up as strictly as I was when I was a young child and are all well behaved like myself and my siblings were.
I do think though some things have changed.

1. Divorce: Divorce is way more common than it used to be. Not every parent does this, but I have seen parents be far too lenient with younger children for 1 or 2 years after a divorce. Parents have also confessed to me that they know they are guilty of this because they feel so guilty about the divorce. So children get away with things they shouldn't and then it gets harder to pull children back into line.
   

1. No Smacking: Lots of parents don't want to smack anymore - which is fine - but don't know what to do instead with children misbehaving. They might half heartedly try to do punishments like the naughty step, but from what I have seen, more frequently they tell their children off, but there are no punishments for children who ignore this.
   

1. Other adults: When I was young other adults would tell children off for things they did wrong. Now that is a big no no and lots of parents would be angry if a stranger did this. But I think it helped to pull children into line.
   

1. Being Your Child's Friend: I don't like very formal relationships between parents and children as there were in some families in the past. Its good to play with children and for them to feel they can talk to you about things. But I think some parents go too far and try to be their parents friend rather than their mum or dad. So I have heard parents say they don't want to tell their young child off as their child might not like them.
   

Of course tv has impact. But IMO the factors above are more important.

[LieInsAreRarerThanTigers]

Thanks for all your interesting posts. I do think a lot of my own problems must be down to personalities, as neither of my children are by nature anything like me or dh were. (Peace-loving, accepting of authority, all my parents' requests seemed pretty reasonable to me and I can honestly remember getting told off only on a few occasions!) Even as a teen I didn't rebel all that much, except for smoking 'secretly' but there was very little confrontation. I think I only raised my voice to my mum or dad a couple of times in my late teens, and with my dad it was a political argument.

Where we live I am able to let them play outside - it was one of the main things which drew us here, so that's not much different.

The main difference in the actual upbringing is more to do with all the outside influences I have mentioned, and all the material things which most children seem to amass, greater availability of what were once considered a rare treat, e.g. cinema (I probably went 2 or 3 times pre age 11?) theme parks (didn't exist!)
Are children now just plain spoilt and take all this stuff for granted?
I am afraid I may be guilty of creating this situation. We are not wealthy by any means but we can afford all this stuff for them and that can make it a bit harder to say no. (Still they seem to have fewer DVDs, games etc than many friends' children.) It's not unusual for 11 or 12 year olds, even younger ones, to have iPhones or Blackberries.

[saidthespiderwithahorridsmile]

I wouldn't give a dog the childhood I had

and I am the sort of parent who exists in reaction to it and wants to give my children all the experiences I didn't have

they are rude and hard to manage sometimes, in some contexts, and I am probably too wet

but they are also enchanting, confident and funny, and can both be altruistic and considerate.

Like Fennel, I would rather have children with challenging behaviour than children who fear me. I can't stand the idea of being feared. I flinched if my mother or stepfather moved quickly near me. I couldn't live like that with my children.

[HKgal]

My mum always said you get the children you deserve - so I made her life hell......

[BuxomWenchOnAPony]

Only read the op, will read the rest when I have more time...

I think we make a mistake in trying to give children the same upbringing that we had. Of course, basic principles of respect for self and others are timeless, but our children are living now. to try to ignore all the outside influences that technology, tv, etc etc bring to our childrens attitudes is to ignore the context in which they are living. I think we need to be working to teach ourselves and our children how to cope with the myriad of opinion and information we're all subject to and to apply it to our own lives and beliefs.

My dd will be subject to more/different opinions and values to those that featured in my own childhood, but I hope that they will have the confidene in themselves to know what they think.

I also think that respect for parents (as respect for anyone else) is earned to some degree, and that 'obedience' is for puppies.

[wordfactory]

I think my DC are having a much nicer childhood than I did.
Sure, they have less freedom due to where we live, but there are so many other great things they have.

I've always been strict about how much time they spend in front of screens but they watch all the usual stuff that is meant to rot their brains.
I don't howvever allow Facebook or violent video games.

If I say so myself my DC are great.
Well behaved, well mannered, very hard working, motivated and enthusiastic.

They are howver very questioning which can be...a tad tiring. But in the round a good thing, I think.

[Fennel]

Oblomov, can you sit down and talk to your ds about the way he talks? My most challenging child was really hard work for the first few years, and still can be on a bad day, but she has always responded really well to talking about behaviour and feelings. Also my children like the feeling of jointly setting boundaries and discussing them, and suggesting sanctions.

This is one of my various attempts to be firm but NOT LIKE MY GIT OF A FATHER. My siblings and I behaved basically cos we were scared of my bad-tempered, slightly unpredictable father. And as adults we all loathe him and avoid him as much as possible (so I am one of those adults who does not talk very positively about my own parents). I would rather have children who were rude to me than who behaved out of fear, but what we do is keep talking about these things, with our dc I think they feel they have quite a lot of control and autonomy, even though in some ways I am quite strict (on rudeness, on tv and computer time, on doing what they're asked without arguing constantly.

I worry sometimes as I don't want to be authoritarian, but on the other hand I really don't like children, or adults, being horrible and rude to each other and getting away with it. But talking to the dc about the rules and expectations does seem to really help with this.

[cory]

Just read the second half of the OP. We didn't have a TV when dd was little, I think we bought it when ds was about 4, but only watched it rarely until he got to around 8 or 9. We did not really introduce video games until they were old enough to buy them with their own pocket money. We have only allowed access to the internet when they got old enough to need it for homework or want it to buy things off Amazon- so we're talking about Yr 6, really.

But I can't really see any difference in behaviour between dd who spends most of her time with her nose in a book and ds who is very into games and television. If anything, ds has always been the gentler, more compliant soul. Perhaps books are too stimulating? You get some terrible behaviour in books, you know.

[cory]

tbh I don't think there is much difference in the respect I gave my parents and the respect my children give me. I was allowed to question their decisions but not to swear or make unkind remarks. I was a strong-willed child who believed I knew best but gradually grew to develop an enormous respect for my parents' judgment. My dd seems to following more or less them same path: she was a difficult child, but is growing more and more mature. She is not at risk of mistaking me for the Almighty but she does genuinely believe that you have to treat other human beings decently- and she accepts that I am more or less a human being. And she is growing to realise that life experience counts for something. No doubt she sees my weaknesses but she is usually prepared to be tactful about them. Ds is younger and occasionally pitches things wrong, but I would certainly not say he is out of control.

I do wish I could have given them the freedom to roam I had as a child- but there were no other children to roam with. Otoh they are getting things I would have killed for- dd lives near a drama club, has other friends who love books, has access to Amazon for her pocket money and can watch old films on DVD and is growing up in an environment where other people expect to study and have interesting jobs: where I grew up, being a school teacher was pretty well the only option for a swotty child.

[exoticfruits]

Parents often talk to their DC in a dreadful way too. I always treat mine with respect and expect the same back. We have our moments but they are generally polite. I do think that DCs ought to question things-the first being their parents-and not just follow blindly, (however bizarre the views). Too many parents seem to think they can control the thoughts of their DCs.

They could have much more freedom. Even my DS (only 20) has remarked that if he goes on a run about 4.30pm he doesn't see a single DC out playing. Parents are far more fearful than they need to be.

[Oblomov]

Like Armadillo and Morloth, I assumed that if I replicated the firm but fair and totally loving childhood I had been given, onto my children, I would end up with a similar happy household. The thing is, I HAVEN'T.
I am firm, but fair. And always have been. But the way ds1 talks to me is disgusting.
And the way I see children talk to their parents generally, everywhere I go, is horrible.
So no, it doesn't appears top be working. Certainly not for me. And I don't think so , in general, from what I see.

[Morloth]

Well there is probably an element of 'in my day...' about it.

I don't have teens yet but I have teenage nieces and they are respectful towards their parents.

I also agree with the previous poster about how what you do early on makes a big difference. We are authoritarian parents I don't put up with half the bullshit I see many on here/RL do. If you let your 5 year old walk all over you then you can't be surprised when your 15 year old does the same.

DS1 is 7 now and has the occasional gobby moment, but it is not tolerated at all. If he speaks to me rudely he is punished, I don't speak to him rudely after all.

[TheArmadillo]

I definately do not want my children to have the childhood I had. In fact I will go to very long lengths to prevent it happening.

But I do agree with sims2fan

"I really do think that parents have to be very strict in the first few years, in a loving but firm way, and then the groundwork has been laid and the children will (usually) know how to behave in any situation as they are growing up."

ok my oldest is only 6yo but he is beautifully behaved - we rarely have to tell him off and even when we do a mild telling off is enough. Yes we do have to tell him things twice because he wasn't always listening the first time and sometimes he does do things without thinking which are a bit stupid but he's never really deliberately naughty.

However ages 0-4yo were hell at points and very stressful from start to finish. Although he was never nasty he was stubborn, difficult, prone to tantrums, you couldn't take your eyes off him for a minute etc etc (obviously at other times he was lovely). It was extremely hard work and the reason why we didn't have another child until recently. But the hard work did pay off - it was worth it in the end.

I have no idea how he'll behave as a teenager though - I may be in for a shock then. Both me and dh were terrible teens.

Ds has unlimited tv and computer games though we do restrict what he watches and plays - more to do with age appropriateness than any other reason.

I think part of the reason why children are perceived to be so badly behaved is because the ones that are are very loud and noticeable and the ones that are well behaved go largely unnoticed. I'm not saying there are not badly behaved children out there - there are. But I know plenty of well behaved ones too.

[Oblomov]

HerBex, for your sanity, I hope not.
Ds1(7), ds2(2).

Agreed, Laquitar.

I am strict-del-la-strict. Infact that could be where i went wrong.

[sims2fan]

I know people who are very kind, very good people, who also treat people how they themselves would want to be treated. They are good to their parents, they are friendly to their neighbours, and they get on with their colleagues.

But, they have children with bad behaviour and they just don't see how it happened. I have an absolutely lovely friend, who would do anything for anyone. By all accounts she herself was a lovely child, and she just can't understand why her 4 year old son misbehaves so much. But, to me, it's obvious. She lets him get away with things that she doesn't think are important, and then she can't get him to stop doing the things she thinks are. When we went to a family friendly pub a few months ago she didn't think it was a problem to let him run around, climb on a sofa, etc, because 'it's really quiet, there's no one here.' No, but now if we go out and there are lots of people around he doesn't understand why it's suddenly not appropriate to run around. When he was 2 she thought it was 'cute' when he said rude things to people, and now that he's 4 and people no longer think it's so cute to hear him tell people who say hello to him to 'go away' she can't get him to stop. Also, as a young toddler she found it funny to teach him to have 'pretend' boxing matches, and laughed when he hit his dad hard, and now he is the child at nursery who is always hitting others, and that from what I have heard is likely to be labelled as the 'naughty boy' who parents won't want their children playing with.

I really do think that parents have to be very strict in the first few years, in a loving but firm way, and then the groundwork has been laid and the children will (usually) know how to behave in any situation as they are growing up.

[usualsuspect]

I agree with Laquitar ,certainly on MN I have read awful things that some posters say about their parents and PILs ,theres no respect there at all

so how can they expect respect of their own children?

[Laquitar]

Oblomov, i do see some people who don't treat older ones very well.

And many new parents totally misuse the 'child centred' concept.

[HerBeX]

How old are your kids Oblmov?

Are my kids going to be like that soon?

[Laquitar]

Sorry LieIns, i 've just realised that my post seems like attack at you/your OP. It wasn't directed to you, honestly. But i just think that our generation isn't much better really, some very selfish and rude 30-40 yo around too.

[Oblomov]

I don't agree with Laq's post.
I treat people the way I want to be treated. I don't call people bitches and then expect my kids not to. In many ways i really am exemplary, in the way I do things, thus teach them. Sure I do silly things aswell, things I wish they hadn't seen. but high % is good.
But I still have children who won't do as I ask, answer me back, and quite frankly I am ashamed to take them anywhere. I never behaved the way they do. It makes my stomach churn. Its so wrong it makes me want to vomit. seriously. And when I compare them to other kids, everyone elses kids are the same. But it doesn't mean i have to like it.
So what can i do. It APPERAS to be the norm. Its just, that I don't like it. I think its wrong.