to think that it's unfair their aren't clubs solely for boys anymore?

[notterrysmine]

And if there are - please point them out to me.

My children are girly girls and boy boys. No intention on my part, but that is the way it is.

They adore each other, but their friends are of the same sex, they have chosen to go to same sex schools.

Now my girls have done girl guiding - very much for the girls and have thoroughly enjoyed it.

Now my son wants to do scouting, and in his particular group there are higher majority of girls and boys, he is not keen on continuing.

Even our boys brigade has girls and boys in it.

Girl guides are girls only with no equality issues - why can't there be boys only clubs?

AIBU?

As I say if there are boys only clubs please point them out to me.

[blindassasin]

In response to OP, why would you want to encourage 'boy's club' behaviour in your sons? It'll put them at a disadvantage in later life as this really isn't the way the world works anymore (atleast it's becoming that way... slowly)

I think it's more of a concern hat your sons can't mingle freely with girls. What is their reasoning behind not wanting to scout with girls?

[5Foot5]

Annie Lobeseder "I don't think it's OK for Guilding to be for girls. I think the whole Guide movement is an insult to women - a weedy watered-down version of scouts for the poor feeble girls who can't cope with the proper stuff the boys do. "

I couldn't disagree more!

I think the Girl Guide movement were very wise to keep it single sex. It is really important IMO that the girls have somewhere they can be themselves, express themselves and try things out without being concious that the boys might be there watching or trying to take over.

It is not a watered down version of scouts. It has its own character and has moved with the times.

[ChippyMinton]

OP YABU. I want all my DC to have the same opportunities. I don't get why you believe that my daughter shouldn't follow her brothers into the beavers/cubs/scouts just because your DS doesn't want to mix with girls?

[turkeyboots]

Haven't read all the posts but has anyone mentioned the Woodcraft folk? They are mixed sex but fair more outdoorsy than I remember Guide or DB scout group being. Also they don't do the whole "God and Queen" bit which I personally like. Although are considered very middle class I understand.

[Slubberdegullion]

Sirzy the OP is not concerned about her dc not mixing in out of school clubs, if she was then there is a large choice of mixed clubs available. I was referring to your post

'Sorry but they need to learn to mix. The need for them and us is wrong on so many levels'

really? I mean really???



I wonder what you think will happen to the girls in the single hour (term time only!) that they spend at the Rainbows I run? Do you think there are lengthy muttered chats going on about boys? Boys never even a get mention. There is no them and us mentality happening, they are far too busy getting on with the activities they they have (mostly) chosen to do.


One of the main principles of Girl Guiding is that the girls have a choice about what they do. The activities change depending on the type of girls that are in the group. It's not about them choosing 'girly girl' activities or outside boisterous sticks and fires ones. Interestingly they don't seem to identify activities as being girly or boy-y, they tend to pick things to do that they think are going to be fun, and have no compunction about telling me when I have arranged things to do that they think are rubbish.

[Sirzy]

Again I was talking about the idea of not mixing at all which is what the OP seems to want!

Im not saying anything is going to happen to the girls, again your rather daft interpretations of things. I am saying if a boy wants to take part in the activities offered why shouldn't he be allowed?

[Slubberdegullion]

Yes I see that post that made me lol was in response to seeker's. Apologies.

Well without reading the thread again I don't think the OP doesn't want her dc to mix with the opposite sex, I think she wants her ds to have an opportunity to participate in a group that is a boys only space.

Why should the boys not be allowed to join? Because the dynamic of the group would change significantly. Because some girls only come out of their shells and find their voice, try out new things and talk about issues they are passionate or feel uncomfortable or embarrassed about in a girl only environment.
Because some girls would never join and never have the opportunity to participate in all the great things Girl Guiding has to offer if boys were there.

Why should Girl Guiding have to change a set up that has worked very successfully for 100 years now (you only have to look at the waiting lists to see how many girls want to be involved) because the Scouting movement decided to change?

Why should a female run and orientated organisation have to change its ways because the boys aren't getting what they want?

[cakeretention]

Slubberdegullion "Why should Girl Guiding have to change a set up that has worked very successfully for 100 years now (you only have to look at the waiting lists to see how many girls want to be involved) because the Scouting movement decided to change?
Why should a female run and orientated organisation have to change its ways because the boys aren't getting what they want?"



You could have argued the same point for many businesses and sports clubs over the past 50 years or so. Why should male run and oriented organisations have had to change their ways because the women were not getting what they wanted?

The answer being that we believe that women and men should have equal access to any job or activity that they want to. If we teach that the opposite is true when they are children then they will continue to believe so when they are adults.

[Slubberdegullion]

Well I'll get behind you with the aspiration that we believe that women and men should have equal access to any job or activity that they want to when, er, well when that is the case for women.

Sadly that is not the case is it?

Women are at a disadvantage from the get go, we have had to fight to get any sort of equality which is still a fair way off.

You think by radically changing an organisation that allows and empowers girls and young women one to two hours a week where THEY have a voice and control over what they do is somehow going to assist in improving gender equality?

[FlorenceAndTheMachine]

I find this thread interesting. Part of me feels that all clubs should be open equally to boys and girls.

Part of me feels glad that the Beaver colony (are they colonies?) that DS goes to is almost all boys and that he is able to enjoy being a boy there (clumsy use of language probably). He isn't especially sporty (and the local football club has boys and girls in it anyway) and enjoys Beavers. DD is in Rainbows and doesn't seem to have any urge to be a Beaver when she is older, although I would be fully supportive if she did.

I remember when I was younger that Venture Scouts as they were then (15 and up?) could be boys or girls.

[PoglesMistletoeandHolly]

So having read most of the thread and pondered the whole issue(it is something I'd been thinking about for a while so it is interesting to read other people's views)I think I've finally got it sorted.

Girls need girls only space where they are free to do what they want without boys dominating and taking over.And it isn't fair to boys if there aren't boy only groups because the minute girls join a previously boys only group they take it over and it becomes girly and boys are stopped from doing boy things.

Oh dear,I think I'm confused again...

[cakeretention]

"You think by radically changing an organisation that allows and empowers girls and young women one to two hours a week where THEY have a voice and control over what they do is somehow going to assist in improving gender equality?"


Yes I do. I believe that equality is not something to be "fought for" or taken through empowerment. How we treat people based on their gender is part of the fabric of our society.

If you teach children that it is reasonable to exclude people from an activity based solely on their gender then they will take that lesson with them through life. The scouts have clearly understood this, as have many other previously male-only organisations.

The guides believe that by continuing to exclude boys they are empowering girls. In fact they are doing exactly the opposite.

[pointydog]

Boys could go to guides, I'm sure. The whole point is, they wouldn't want to go because anything all-girl is seen as yet and anything all-boy is seen as cool. By both sexes.

This has come up before.

[pointydog]

Ahh, so gides aren't opern to boys? Well, they should be.

And fear ye not for no boy would join Guides. Try it. It would be a very interesting experiment.

[notterrysmine]

But I'm sure there are boys who would join Guides.

Just to clarify - my son has no issue with girls - and will grunt at them with the best of them .

I've taken on board the comments about its not the whole association, and that we will look for different packs. But since the girl numbers have increased significantly in his group, the activities have altered to be more feminine in type, this has led to boys leaving, which of course, has led to the girls having a greater impact, leading to more boys leaving...increasing circle.

It was at this point, that I realised that there was no heavily boy orientated club anymore, (whether girl only is irrelevant, but boy orientated), and I appreciate girl guiding is a completely different organisation. I am not dissing girl guiding, infact, I'm saying it's got it right - it's looking after the girls and giving them the empowerment, I just feel that noone's looking after the boys in the same way.

If I was a Baden Powell person, and was able to do it myself, I would - but like 90% of the population i'm going to have a whinge about it and hope that someone else actually starts what I believe there is a call for.

[notterrysmine]

D'oh (whether boy* only is irrelevant but boy orientated)

[onceamai]

I love being a woman and have never, ever felt disadvantaged by it. I went to an all girls school, not at all sporty, yet have mixed happily and successfully (on an investment bank's trading floor in my twenties no less) with men all my life.

DD is at all girls school, DS at all boys. DD loves Guides, just loves it and it is fantastic and an absolute credit to the ladies who run it. It has been an incredibly enriching and valuable experience for her. DD has no problem whatsoever mixing with DS's mates or any other boys she comes across. She played with boys at primary and said she wanted an all girls school for secondary.

DS plays cricket, football, rugby and tennis. There are one or two girls at cricket and football, none at rugby and tons at tennis. There were none at beavers or cubs - he went along with beavers but hated cubs - it was run by a man and completely disorganised.

[Chandon]

This makes me think.

I always think it is nice there are girls too at the boys' karate and cricket classes.

I never thought they should not be there.

Sorry, I just do not get it at all.

[Slubberdegullion]

cakeretention I completeley disagree with you, and I think you are missing the point that has been made several times that if boys were accepted into the Guiding movement that there would be many girls who would simply not join.

There are plenty of girls out there (I was one) whose behaviour and confidence is affected in the company of the opposite sex. By offering girls and young women time and space and choice and a voice in an environment that they feel comfortable in you are empowering them.

You only have to ask the girls themselves if this is the case or not.

Guiding is not anti boy, I certainly have not taken any sort of anti male agenda with me through my life post Brownies and Guides, but it is very pro girl. Big difference.

And the Scouts didn't accept girls in some sort of gender equality epiphany. They did it so save the movement as the numbers of boys attending were dropping.

[Deliaskis]

Only just got back onto mn after Christmas, but I agree with Slubberdegullion on almost everything. I'm a Brownie leader and also have a lot of involvement in a local Guide unit. The activities we do are not all girly and it's not about being a 'girly girl', but it is about letting girls experience a wide range of activities (that they choose) in a girl-only environment.

It would change the dynamic considerably if it was a mixed group, and there is a reason that Guides and Brownies et al are still so popular among girls - some of them don't want to go to cubs/scouts etc.

When I was a Ranger (older Guide), we did a lot of acvitities with the local Venture Scout unit, but we still had our own identity which meant if we also wanted to have a pyjama/pamper night with DVDs etc. then we could do. It was about us having more choice.

A lot of girls will actually try something more adventurous/physically difficult in a girl-only environment that they would back away from if boys were involved. It is about empowering them. And at various stages of development it's important to be able to try new things in an uninhibited way.

If the world really were equal, and men and women were not judged differently by anyone in any environment, then maybe there would be no need for Guides to be girls only, but until we have reached that point, it is important to provide this empowering environment for girls.

Should there be similar for boys? Well yes I think so, I think it was a mistake for Scouts to let girls in. There should have been more development of joint activities between Guides & Scouts, whilst still leaving each movement single sex, IMO.

Those by the way who don't like that their local Brownie unit mainly does crafts and 'indoorsy' activities have a very easy solution available to them - get involved, change things. That's the way we move forward.

D

[bruffin]

"Should there be similar for boys? Well yes I think so, I think it was a mistake for Scouts to let girls in. There should have been more development of joint activities between Guides & Scouts, whilst still leaving each movement single sex, IMO. "

Unfortunately we have found the guides to be very anti scouts. They seem to reluctant to join in events organised by scouts etc
We also found guides not so family orientated. You drop your child off and that's it unless they want help. Our scouts do far more family orientated activities.

[Deliaskis]

bruffin, I agree some districts don't have very good links between Guides & Scouts, and in some cases that's the fault of one party or the other, but in other districts it works really well and offers maximum choice for all those involved. (not surprisingly, it works especially well where leaders of respective groups are good friends or family!).

D

[Sirzy]

im a leader for a youth group with mixed sexes who have done pj nights/dvd nights without a problem!

i think its sad young people feel they cant be themselves around the opposite sex tbh

[pointydog]

ah yes, good point, slubber, and one I was going to ask about.

I was thinking that scouts probably let in girls beucase their numbers were dropping.

Unfortunately there are not enough 11-15 year old boys who want a boys only scouty-style club so they can't have one.

[Deliaskis]

Sirzy, I agree that it's sad that some young people feel they can't be themselves around the opposite sex, but it's a fact, that some do feel this way, whether they actively realise it or not. Whether it's a phase, part of growing up, or whether it's just different personalities, different experiences at school/home etc. there is IMO a definite value in the girls I work with having the opportunity to spend time in a girl-only environment.

If anything, it encourages many of them to be less girly and more adventurous - e.g. we were white-water rafting in Switzerland, and we asked the girls who wanted to do the more challenging/difficult course, and who wanted to do the easier one. I think if it had been a mixed group, a lot of the girls would have just plumped for the easier one assuming that the difficult one would need a bit more bravado, or feeling like the boys in the more challenging group would not want them there etc. whereas when there's just girls, they make the decision based purely on what they would like to do, and they know they will be supported either way.

D