To not see why 'cunt' is a worse insult than many others?

[HeathcliffMoorland]

I never hear anyone outraged at someone being called a cock/dick/scrotum...

If there's something I'm missing and someone can tell me why I'm BU, I will happily change my ways.

[RevoltingPeasant]

Quite, tethers.

And I don't believe it is his intention. IMO it is a bit too cosy for a straight married white man to crack jokes at the apparent expense of marginalised groups he's not a part of and then claim some type of nebulous postmodern subversive irony.

Can you tell I don't like him...?

[northernrock]

Not as funny as the one about "opening Pandora's Box" RevoltingPeasant

[northernrock]

Oops...x posted!

[claig]

'claig, I suppose that although Frankie Boyle asserts that smuggling progressive ideas into the mainstream is his motivation, were he (and others) successful, RevoltingPeasant is saying that he would be out of a job. In other words, his career (or at least his act) relies on him being unsuccessful in his intention.'

I think Boyle is being a successful progressive. He is achieving what he wants. His subversive, corrosive, offensive, progressive ideas are gaining currency. He is not alone. There are many others like him. Why is it happening? Why is he on TV? Why are there no "conservative" comedians, why are they nearly all liberal progressives? I think it is because the media is progressive, the BBC and Channel 4 are progressive. Why is the Daily Mail the most hated newspaper in Britain and why do all the comedians make jokes about it? Because it is not progressive.

[northernrock]

No Claig, thats because it's a hate filled rag for morons.

[claig]

that's probably what Frankie Boyle says in his standup routines. It probably gets a laugh as there probably aren't many Mail readers in the audience.

[northernrock]

No I reckon he says something like " ha ha spackers wot a load of fucking cunts." Or something.

[LaWeaselMys]

"I think the essential difference between us is that you think that swearing is not connected to other actions in society. I think it is connected, because society had a self-policing policy against it. As that is steadily removed, society will feel its impact."

I think that there are people of all ages who are offensive and discriminatory and deeply unpleasant and that SOME probably most of them will swear because they don't care what society thinks of them, or the law.

I don't believe that the fact that society is starting to find swearing more and is relaxing it's boundaries means that people will find it acceptable to misbehave in other ways. Because not believing that swearing has to be offensive, or that it is always offensive, or that it is okay in certain circumstances is not the same as not caring what society thinks of you at all.

Let's replace swearing with smoking. Smoking is generally disapproved of by society. But because somebody smokes even though society disapproves doesn't mean they do other things society disapproves of like swearing, being violent, racist.

[bucaneve]

Too right HeathcliffMoorland, YADNU! I don't see why my bits should be inherently more disgusting/shocking/whatever than a mans.

In fact I love it when my friends reclaim the word and use it affectionatly!

will now read the thread

[northernrock]

Hmmm.

I do think you have to make the distinction between swearing per se, and swearing at people.

In general it has , lately, I feel become more acceptable for strangers to swear at each other (think road rage).

Recently I was sworn at repeatedly (Fucking/fuck) by a man whilst with my small son. On noticing my shocked face he said with a sneer "yes I will swear in front of a child."
I actually burst into tears afterward it was so aggressive. (obviously if I had been alone I would not have been so upset, but with my son, ouch.)

When that is something a seemingly well spoken middle class man will do without apparent shame, it does make me wonder about all of this. And if he had called me a cunt I think I would have torched his van.

Although I use the word cunt a lot, but referring to people, not at them.

It's confusing.

[claig]

'Smoking is generally disapproved of by society.'

yes but this change has only been recent and as yet is not seen as being disrespectful to others, but this is rapidly changing. Progressives will make it so that smokers are outcasts and say that their actions harm others etc. It will be interesting to see what happens then. It may lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy.



the norms about using words like cunt have existed for years and years and we bring our children up not to use those words. Why do we do this? Why does society not condone the use of these words? I think it is to teach good behaviour. Why does it matter if they are only words and sounds? What's the big deal about using the word 'cunt'? Society knows what the big deal is and that is why its norms discourage it.

[claig]

northernrock, that man swearing at you is an example of what I am trying to say. It is a breakdown in respect, his sense of decency has been diminished, he has no shame swearing in front of you and your child. T^e barriers have been broken. The upbringing has been undermined, possibly by the ubiquitous examples of swearing that he hears daily.

The lack of respect that comes together with swearing is what allowed him licence to swear at you in public. If it carries on the way it is going, then in 30 years time he would have used 'cunt' too without any shame.

[LaWeaselMys]

I don't think any swearwords are bad, but I think swearing at people aggressively whatever you say is really foul and unacceptable.

People get very het up about life/crime/society being worse now than it was. But there's no evidence of this. If you go back and read WW2 newspapers it's all "yoff of today" in exactly the same way as it is now. And people believe it, exactly the same way they did then!

The vocabulary has changed, but I'm not convinced that makes it worse. Someone swearing at you in the street is a very rare event. Just because it happened recently doesn't mean it couldn't've happened 20yrs ago. (sorry they did though northernrock)

[LaWeaselMys]

Claig, I think you're pretty naive and ignorant and appear to live your life via the daily mail.

Which is a shame, it's lovely out here, people are very sweet to me and toddler DD. The yoff are always giving up seats on buses and helping me with steps. No one has sworn in front of her and not apologised afterwards.

[northernrock]

30 years?
God, someone yelled "you cunt" at me because I didn't thanks them at a zebra crossing! (I don't normally thank people for obeying the law but that's another rant..)

The thing is though, I am not sure it's that simple to draw a direct line from swearing being more ok to people behaving less civilly.

I would say: It has become more acceptable to behave uncivilly, therefore , as a side effect, people swear at each other more.

[northernrock]

And the behaving uncivilly I would trace straight back to Thatcher.
But then I would.

[northernrock]

Hey LaWeasal where do you live? I am moving there!!

[claig]

LaWeaselMys, I'm not naive. I have also been sworn at in a road rage incident. Of course it is a lovely world and there are lots of lovely people. But there are also many nasty people and racists and people who shout abuse at people.

I'm glad you haven't met any of those. I hope it stays that way. But if you think that 'cunt' is just a word, try saying it to some of the yoof and see what the reaction is.

[LaWeaselMys]

I don't agree that we're less civil.

There's a couple of studies about it if you have a google that press and public opinion is always that life is worse/less respectful/civil than it was 30yrs ago, but if you follow the papers back everyone has always believe this. There was no mythical time where everyone behaved acceptably.

Which I find sad and upsetting because it gets used politically to penalise and stigmatise young people frequently.

[claig]

'It has become more acceptable to behave uncivilly'

I agree with that. but what has caused this? It's not our schools, because they have all the citizenship training and anti-bullying policies etc. What has brought about the change?

[LaWeaselMys]

I wouldn't bother northern, everyone is civil, conservative and racist.

I'd rather get sworn at than be neighbours with racists tbh.

[northernrock]

Thats true, young people have always been demonised.
I have not had any trouble with them myself. The man who went for me was in his thirties. The man who called me a cunt when I was crossing the road, more like forties.

I was out of the country for a few years and actually did notice a difference when I returned. I do think it is just more acceptable to go to anger sooner.
In other words, where people might have been more hesitant to show anger in, say, the post office queue, now it's all "tuts" and muttered comments. People seem to get aggressive a lot faster for some reason.
Purely a personal observation, not from any newspaper (I never read 'em)

[northernrock]

Yeah, me too LaWeasel. Thats why there should be a program called "Escape From the Country"

[Takver]

Going back to the OP, 'gradations' of sweariness are definitely different in other languages.

In Spanish (certainly where we lived), calling someone a 'cabron' (lit. 'billygoat') was outstandingly rude, on-the-point-of-blows type rude.

Whereas the conductor of the band I played in used to shout '¡Coño!' ('cunt') at you if you played a wrong note . . .

[LaWeaselMys]

I think it is more acceptable to speak your ills after decades of repression. Not necessarily by swearing but complaining is starting to be okay. Which releases some of the previously silent wankers I guess. But it does nothing to society as a whole apart from justifiably annoy people when it is misdirected.

Crime rates have been going down for an incredibly long time, but fear of crime is going up.

Nobody has ever sworn at me living here, but the only people to get shirty or be rude are older too. Of the kind who wouldn't swear, but think it's okay to tell you you're stupid for not doing something the way they would.