to think the housepricecrash forum...

[DuelingFanjo]

should have better things to do with their time than to slag off mumsnet.

they seem to have a reall issue with people on here which is just sad.

[DeadPoncy]

What annoyed me about the little I have seen so far is the overdependance on economic indicators. Those are helpful, to be sure, and many people have ignored them for too long - to overall economic detriment! - but the whole point about the recent housing boom (any boom, in fact), is that it shows up classical economics as bullshit.

I am a bear, and have always been a bear, but I must admit that that's because I've also been seduced into smugness by this classical economics bullshit. I realise now that people don't act in their economic best interests (they see a bandwagon/ emotion takes over/ their pension's value crashed and they are scared, etc.) , and moreover, it has come to a point where banks and governments can't afford to make people act in the greater economic interest, either (e.g. by severely restricting credit, encouraging saving in a meaningful way, etc.).

In some areas, property prices are bound to go up, because Good Schools will funnel in all the money of people who still have money/credit, as maybe they can't quite afford to send their children to private school, but they will certainly buy into the best state schools they can! This funnelling dynamic is at work at the top of the market, with the highest-end London properties still commanding huge prices because moneyed people from around the world are coming into the market (increased demand, supply relatively steady). In some parts of the UK this upward dynamic will not be available, so prices will definitely fall, for reasons I don't feel like rehearsing.

Nevertheless, public spending cuts are an important economic and emotional factor which it's wise to keep in mind. when considering property prices. If some of the HPC forum members are making such disparaging comments about women, nesting, children and families, they are probably missing something which would really add to their understanding!

[sethstarkaddersmummyreturns]

their loss though innit?

[quietplease]

Dead Poncy.

Amen.

[DeadPoncy]

Now I'm going to have difficulty going on the forum without being desperate to break some balls heads! Aaargh - why did I get all wound up like this?

[AlpinePony]

mintyfresh haha - that's exactly it! They think all women are desperately wetting their pants in excitement of a 3-bed semi and that all we want from life is Laura Ashley curtains and some gold twigs in a vase. What's possibly worse... is that they think they'll be lauded and all us women's knicker elastic will ping because they've got 40k in the bank because they've been able to save in a canny manner by renting the aforementioned bedsit. It's like having to choose whether you'd set up home with Moss or Roy!

[DeadPoncy]

"40K in the bank"

Haha



Sounds like a cast of wannabe Nouriel Roubinis (a.k.a. Doctor Doom). He eventually got the adulation bears believe he deserve. The trouble is that it's a very seductive mindset - be against the world, mock it and be mocked by it for years, then be proven right as All Unbelievers Are Crushed. That's not exactly conducive for polite social life, nor, even, particularly, debate. A clear reason why HPC and MN haven't mixed well!

[Heracles]

It's a horrible forum on a wrong-headed site; don't even give them a minute of your life reading it.

[DeadPoncy]

I think there is a lot to be said for the bearish point of view. As I said, DH was reading the blog, where bearish news is aggregated, before all of this blew up, and it was a very interesting corrective to the bullish bullshit which dominated about for so long.

Anyway, will try a few threads there and see what's up!

[kyoto]

I post regularly on HPC.

We obviously have our nutty elements, but if you look beyond the surface, the arguments that underlie the site are quite reasonable and really do affect you guys more than you might realise.

Here's a few:

• The average person or family should be able to afford to buy a decent home for their families. This is verging on a basic human right and yet it's almost impossible to achieve in this country.
  

• They should be able to achieve this without signing themselves up to 25 years of high mortgage payments. Our high house prices result in you paying 2 x asking price after interest payments, with the high repayments leave you at risk of repossession, interest rates, losing your job etc. Surely signing your life away to the bank is a horrible way to live?
  

• If we are stuck in rented accomodation, that should be of high standard, and should come with appropriate guarantees such as long contracts, long notice periods, right to quiet enjoyment etc.
  

• Only banks profit by high house prices. This idea of people celebrating house price rises (one of lifes most fundamental essentials) just strikes us all as bizarre. Are we so happy when the price of food or electricity rises?
  

• There are too many people looking to profit at the expense of the working man. Bankers, the benefit classes, and those reviled buy to let landlords. We feel like we all go out and work our arses off, but everyone else seems to get ahead that bit easier by feeding off that hard work. The systems are stacked against the common man.
  

• The last few governments are propping up that inflated housing market at the expense of other things they could be doing.
  

• Why should houses (homes) be a speculative investment? Let traders and banks and investors trade other stuff with each other and leave housing to it's rightful role - keeping the rain off us.
  

• All of the above contribute to much broader social problems. Lack of community, lack of mobility, the rich getting richer.....
  

The thing is, these are issues that we all share with the Mumsnet crowd. If you're a family or a young couple, then each one of the above issues directly affects you.

Indeed, I think I can speak for the HPC forum when I say we wonder why all of the above stuff doesn't make you more angry?

I personally really appreciated the contributions and opinions of Mumsnet posters last week as it really bought home a different perspective on the same problem.

And finally, chatting about house prices is boring, but it's both a symptom and a cause of much wider issues with our economy and society.

[kyoto]

www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=152933

[HPCer]

Just popped in for the first time to say hi from HPC, yes we are angry and frustrated with the global economy.
When you are fed up with the fluffy, dumbed down, celebrity driven culture.
When you want answers to why our future generations are not able to afford further education, a home or able to support a family.
I would highly recommend our site, yes we have our share of nutters, what site doesn't.

[Pytyr]

Hello from HPC.

I'm not a Mum, I'm a Dad, the other half of the parental equation.

There are a some on HPC that like to wind people up. From what I can tell by the responses on this thread, there are a few here as well. that's to be expected.

Our point is that easy credit lead to stupid house prices. That lead to economic crisis. that economic crisis started to unwind in 2007. It still has a long way to go before it stabilises.

If you want to look deeper than "it's full of lonely men that like to crack one off" you would find some very good analysis of where we are, why we are here and where we are heading.

From the outside, I always viewed Mumsnet as an exclusionst club for collective whiners. I'm prepared to admit I could be wrong. Are you?

We don't do . We do do taking personal responsibility. We don't like high house prices, they distort everything and make like miserable for everyone except for banks.

We also like to have a laugh.

This thread is being discussed over there now. One of the funniest reposnses so far has been "How did she know about the tuna?".

For some reason, there have been a few links to Mumsnet discussion recently. that's why it's been commented on.

In the words of the immortal Ringo Starr: "Peace and Love"

[safetalk]

waves to those from HPC to say hello
you're right you know!

[DeadPoncy]

Hi, kyoto and HPCer. Thanks for saying something. I knew it couldn't be all twats and brickbats over there!

There are a lot of "serious" threads on Mumsnet at the moment, which you might enjoy, and which it would be good to hear from more people on.

Of course there's room for more than one forum in one's life, so I am going to go onto HPC at some point soon. However, I definitely won't abandon Mumsnet, as the talkboards seem to be much more "liquid", meaning discussions flow well, and fast; also, I like the fluidity of the conversation, engendered by that active community - a discussion about the division of household tasks can veer into feminist territory but also economic territory if the root issue is the amount of money coming in. Landlord problems often come back to the very issues you raised, kyoto (check under Property/DIY topic), and there, also, there are a few professional lettings agents and lawyers floating about, who can advise when certain landlord (or tenant) actions are illegal. That is a community spirit I don't want to do without.

However, ideas belong to us all, so let's keep up the cross-pollination!

[DuelingFanjo]

blimey, an invasion.

[DeadPoncy]

I'm not an invader! I have a pedigreeeeee going back to ooooh 2008 (late 2008)

[salizchap]

I remember reading the original MN thread about struggling to sell. It really annoyed me, because like a lot of people I have struggled to get a decent place to live because house prices were and still are ridiculously high. Some of the posters on that thread came across as spoiled princesses. I sympathise for those who bought at the wrong time, but there is a homelessness epidemic in this country, and TBH, house prices can´t get low enough.

I´m a little annoyed at the fact that some posters on HPC seem to have tarred all mumsnetters with the same brush. There are a LOT of us on low incomes (try 10k for size!!-had to laugh at the joker complaining that he only earns 60k and gets no help) who are also pleased about property prices going down.

[HPCer]

Thanks for the welcome, more of a threesome than invasion.

Need help on finding my way around your forum. Looking for a pet subject of mine 'mortgage fraud'.
A link to 2003 BBC program, would like to read your views.
video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-8482518243122067675&hl=en-GB#

[DeadPoncy]

Missed your post, Pytyr. Thanks for joining in.

Of course we are a mixed bunch, and I'm glad to hear you are, too. So where are the laughs on HPC? My DH was only reading the news blog for ages, so all fairly bearish, A bit like Daily Mail reading (you know, something to read when you feel like getting angry, or feel like learning about something outrageous), if the Daily Mail were to abandon their Capital-loving ways and turn on Celebrity in toto!

The current threads you all might enjoy/find interesting include:

[[Am I being unreasonable?
to think we're all going to pay for stuff we don't access, so suck it up (a bit)? Am I being unreasonable? to think we're all going to pay for stuff we don't access, so suck it up (a bit)?]]

I'm hoping there's already a thread on the SAHM writing about CB cuts in Saturday's Grauniad (money section), but in case there...

.... and that's all I've got on my Threads I'm On at the moment, as I've been a bit of a thread tart recently.

However, try monitoring: In the News
and
Politics
and occasionally
Property/DIY - this sometimes has rental issues which generate some good economic debate.
Employment Issues also has some good scope for learning about issues adding to people's sense of job insecuity.

Last, I really hope you will not need it, but there is also a bereavement forum, where people will be gentle to you, and allow you to talk about someone you have lost, knowing how hard it can be to never hear a name spoken again (other people do forget about those who are gone, and that can make the bereaved feel even more alone).

MN really is a wonderful community.

[Eloise73]

I've been reading and posting on HPC for years and i've learned a lot. And, shock horror, i'm a woman, a mum to boot!

Yes, a few of the guys on there are slightly mental/ocd about stuff (and possibly could do with touching a woman lol!) but generally they are spot on, very intelligent and have made me change my view on houses and what their truth worth is to me and my family.

I will NEVER give the banks stupid amounts of money for some crap little terraced, i'd rather rent the rest of my life and spend on things that really matter. I for one am looking forward to a huge drop in prices and I don't ever want to see people looking to their homes as ATM machines that they can just withdraw money from at will to finance private schools, holidays and 4x4's. Pure stupid greed has gotten us into this mess, we can blame New Labour til the cows come home (and I do, they were shite) but at the end of the day no one put a gun to anyone's head and forced them to overspend, gazump, and buy like the world was going to end tomorrow.

HPC'ers rule

[DeadPoncy]

Oh. HPCer, it said the video "might not be available" (as if Google didn't know?!)

If you want to search for mortgage fraud, go to the top of the page, and input the term into the search box. Then use the drop-down menu to find Mumsnet talk.

Now your turn. Where shall I start on HPC forum?

[DeadPoncy]

Hi, Eloise73.
"I for one am looking forward to a huge drop in prices"
Aren't "we" all?

Well, not everyone, of course, and it's going to be a matter of how stubborn the holdouts are, how stubborn they can afford to be, and how scared governments and banks are. I must say, I'm getting quite scared about the latter myself, reading "The Great Deflation" and wondering to what lengths governments and banks will go to to prevent inflation from "unwinding".

[Quattrocento]

Unpleasant link. I don't like the assertions that MNers are 'fickos' and hormone-riddled. Misogynistic bunch of losers.

That site focusses on the lack of liquidity and the inability of borrowers to borrow enough to fund house-buying. That's a temporary issue though. The main issue is of supply and demand for the actual commodity (property) rather than the supply and demand of the wherewithal to purchase it.

Fundamentally, houses are in short supply because of planning restrictions that we have on building new properties, because we want to preserve our green spaces. The demand for housing will carry on increasing with the increases in (a) the population (b) longevity and (c) divorce. Inevitably in the UK house prices will increase over the longer term.

[DeadPoncy]

Not inevitably, certainly not for the housing of which there is oversupply (notoriously city-centre one- and two-bed flats). Interestingly, I understand that one reason for the oversupply of those was planning legislation requiring a certain percentage of housing to be built on brownfield sites, which would mean that builders were cynically knocking up as many as possible in the space given, in order to be able to build more profitable, higher-margin houses in "greener" locations

There is a schism between high-quality housing - particularly with the ever-more sought after benefit of being in "good" school catchments - and shitty high-volume housing on which builders gained fantastic margins but the dwellers (tenants?!) lost space to breathe and store anything. Of course, there's loads of stuff in the middle as well, so perhaps it's not so much a schism as a total fragmentation. NOt one property market, by any means, and it's necessary to take account of all the factors - bullish and bearish (why pay too much, after all?) - in your micro-market.

[HPCer]

Deadponcy

Two links in our off topic subject, off field topics however with your constructive arguments on here you may enjoy.
World without cancer

www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=152589

This Is An Important Moment In Science History

www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=152620