So sorry for NHS staff

[6demandingchildren]

Tried calling my GP practice this morning to get a telephone appointment, Mondays is the worst time to call as you can never get through but I was lucky only this time I was met with a different welcome message, it basically said that its not the receptionists fault if their are no available appointments and please do not take your frustrations out on the staff.
Anyway once the receptionist answered (this was around 10am) all the appointments for the day had gone and she asked what was wrong, I have only got pins and needles in my face so nothing major and she advised me to call back tomorrow morning or phone 111.
No wonder these poor people are so stressed out.

[cptartapp]

DH is an accountant and has been for over thirty years. His hours of work and stress levels are nowhere comparable with the GP's I work with.

[Dhcfisssifjrsnxfjds]

@ OttilieStonelady the rest of the professional world copes.

[Koph]

What taxpayer payments to their training?
It costs over £230k to train a doctor. Only part of it is paid by the student.
It's a fact that many GPs are contracted LTFT. I do understand why this is and I'm not knocking GPs for it. My friend went part time at 55 and still works as many hours as many in a 9 to 5 job.
I still don't think that a newly qualified doctor should be allowed to work outside the NHS or part time.
There are other professions who work long hours. People think teachers only work 9 to 3.30 but in fact there are very few teachers who don't spend every evening, much of the weekend and a large proportion of holidays working. For a lot less money.

Missed appts should have a penalty fee like the dentist although I've read previously that this would cost more in admin. There needs to be some accountability for repeat offenders though
A modest fixed fee for consultation (free for low incomes) would be a disincentive to waste time but is politically unthinkable.

[Wineandroses3]

Anyone who works in primary care (GP practices) will tell you there is a massive shortage of GPs - and the number coming through medial school are seriously declining? It’s not as an attractive profession as it used to be. Yes they get paid well - but why shouldn’t they - they carry the weight of responsibility and if they get it wrong god help them. Added to that the constant bashing of GP practices in the media and the public becoming increasingly aggressive why would anyone want to put up with that. Young, gifted talented students will take their skills either abroad or somewhere else.

[Phyllis321]

DH’s GP rang him at about 8pm to check how his new meds were working out. He said she was almost in tears by the end of the lengthy conversation because she was so exhausted.

[Dhcfisssifjrsnxfjds]

@cptartapp

DH is an accountant and has been for over thirty years. His hours of work and stress levels are nowhere comparable with the GP's I work with.

Well that settles it then. No one hear wants to hear the reality that the demands on GPs are standard in the professional world. No point in trying convince anyone because obviously there are fixed views here (or at least unreasonable expectations of professional life), but some broader perspective on the plight of GPs would surely help.

[Macaroni46]

Not the point of the thread I know, but I do object to the fact that you have to phone in the morning for an appointment unless you're prepared to wait weeks to be seen. When I pointed out to the receptionist that I actually work at the time that one should call and that that was discriminatory and basically meant it's nigh on impossible for me to get an appointment she just said 'go online'. I know it's not her fault and I wasn't rude but I do think this phoning in the morning system is antiquated and defunct and must add more stress onto the receptionists.

[Cbtb]

“All these stories about how hard GPs are working is no different to other professionals who work even longer hours in high pressure high stakes roles, where the work never ends and the demands never let up. That is the reality of professional life. Why do GPs think they are exempt? Clinics should provide a minimum number of appointments monthly with a fixed maximum percentage of virtual appointments, and answer calls within a fixed period of time, or public funding should be withdrawn.”

All the data shows that more GP consults than ever are happening. I think many GPs would be happy to have a contracted max amount of clinic apts like the above because the current issue is that there is unlimited demand. People just seem not to get that there are no appointments because they are all taken up by other people not because they are not being offered. It’s exactly like the petrol - the same amount of service being offered but demand going up causes a shortage.

I think the answering phone calls within a set amount of time is a bit hard because if you want all calls answered within 1min for example and most calls take 3min and the average GP surgery has 1-2 incoming calls per min then back of a napkin says you need 6 people just for answering the phones and there’s no way enough staff for that (there is also a crisis in reception staff supply)

It’s not hard 4hrs session at 10 min apts is 24 patients and then an hr of admin. So one dr can see 24 patients per half day or 48per full day (that’s a 10hr working day with no break btw). Home vists are done on top. If 60 patients call wanting an appointment what can be done? Usually some amount of phone triage and then the truly urgent 5 or so are squeezed in and a home visit meaning a 12hr day BUT there are still 5 or so upset patients that haven’t been seen.

The only fix is more doctors because asking the current ones to work more hours will result in even more of them quitting. Cutting appointment time is not going to be tolerated. The only fix is to hire more doctors. The catch 22 is that people don’t want to be GPs because it’s shit right now. Yes pay is ok but conditions are so poor that no one wants to do it.

[Madwife123]

@Dhcfisssifjrsnxfjds You are wrong if you think all professions are working those hours! I know people in 3 of the professions you used as examples who don’t work anywhere near 60 hours. When training and establishing themselves yes, the same as junior doctors, but not their entire career!

[Cbtb]

@Koph that figure is untrue fullfact.org/health/cost-training-doctor/

[Dhcfisssifjrsnxfjds]

[quote Madwife123]@Dhcfisssifjrsnxfjds You are wrong if you think all professions are working those hours! I know people in 3 of the professions you used as examples who don’t work anywhere near 60 hours. When training and establishing themselves yes, the same as junior doctors, but not their entire career![/quote]
That is not correct in my experience

[Madwife123]

Well I’m the second person who has now said the same so maybe your experience is different than the reality. Or you have experienced people new to the field.

[ApplePippa]

@Dhcfisssifjrsnxfjds

All these stories about how hard GPs are working is no different to other professionals who work even longer hours in high pressure high stakes roles, where the work never ends and the demands never let up. That is the reality of professional life. Why do GPs think they are exempt? Clinics should provide a minimum number of appointments monthly with a fixed maximum percentage of virtual appointments, and answer calls within a fixed period of time, or public funding should be withdrawn.

Please don't play this stupid game.

My BiL is a GP 20 years experience behind him. He was signed off work last week after he broke down. He is utterly broken. As a family we are very worried about the state he is in.

I don't care if there are "other professionals who work even longer hours". If the expectation is as a doctor, you work until you break, then something is very, very wrong.

[Cbtb]

@koph what is “newly qualified” how long before you can go part time? Very few truly newly qualified (foundation) doctors are LTFT.

Junior doctors very rarely do true private work - their on training contracts that forbid it. If they are working “outside” the nhs it will usually be for hospices or sexual health services - I am assuming you still want these services to have doctors? If you apply to go LTFT your not permitted to work for someone else on your non working time routinely (other than your own hospital department covering absences) unless it’s the reason for you to go LTFT - for example you might apply to train part time to also work in an NGO or health charity for the other half of the week (or be an Olympic athlete)

[Dhcfisssifjrsnxfjds]

@Madwife123

Well I’m the second person who has now said the same so maybe your experience is different than the reality. Or you have experienced people new to the field.

I’d say that most people on MN do not have real exposure to the professional world. And your assumption is wrong.

[OttilieStonelady]

Honestly, you have no idea. The majority of the professional world absolutely don't work 12-16 hours a day 5 days a week. Some do and I would hope that we would also be supportive of them if they reached breaking point and not tell them 'well everyone else does it so stop moaning'

[Cbtb]

@Dhcfisssifjrsnxfjds really? I send my kid to before and after school care. The other dr mum and I are the last ones at pick up every day.

Within my friends and family (who contain a teacher, architect, chartered surveyors, dance teacher, university professor, and a lawyer) I am the one who is always unable to make the weekend away or running late due to being stuck at work. None of them have ever worked Christmas Day. They all get to pick when to take their annual leave within reason. This is outside London so maybe none of us are high flyers but we all earn comparitable amounts

[PhoboPhobia]

@Dhcfisssifjrsnxfjds

All these stories about how hard GPs are working is no different to other professionals who work even longer hours in high pressure high stakes roles, where the work never ends and the demands never let up. That is the reality of professional life. Why do GPs think they are exempt? Clinics should provide a minimum number of appointments monthly with a fixed maximum percentage of virtual appointments, and answer calls within a fixed period of time, or public funding should be withdrawn.

But what if, as in many cases, they can't meet those targets because they can't recruit?

A practice I work woth has had 2 GP posts and a nurse post vacant for over a year and they cannot fill them. They have increased the pay, offered a starting bonus and increased things like holiday and sick pay.

This is an excellent practice with a great local reputation. It's not shit, the patients registered there are on the whole very happy with the service they have received during the pandemic.

If the funding is withdrawn the practice will close and the patients would have no GP to go to at all.

The system is broken but it isn't the fault of the GPs or their teams.

[cptartapp]

Our close friend is the CEO of a multinational company. Even his balls up won't result in possible chronic pain or loss of life.
Regardless, all previous points still stand.
Unfortunately such misguided attitudes and men banging desks only serve to increase the tide of experienced staff quitting and leaving a helluva mess for those left behind.

[PhoboPhobia]

@Dhcfisssifjrsnxfjds

At a minimum, GPs should be able to work part time only in exceptional circumstances where it is compatible with the demands of their practice. A large part of the problem seems to be that GPs want to work 3 or 4 day weeks (and I know that this still means more than full time, it is exactly the same in other professional fields).

Are you serious? Do you know that a large percentage of the GP population are working parents?

If all these rules you suggested were imposed we would immediately lose a massive proportion of the GP workforce - then who is going to do the work?

Honestly, name me any other profession where the public is baying to have people worked into the ground. I get that people are frustrated and worried about the state of the NHS but do you honestly have no insight, even after all these posts, that GPs as a profession are on their knees? Or do you just enjoy a bit of bashing without giving a shit whether you are being fair or could be wrong?

[cptartapp]

And you'd have a very very long wait stood at the reception desk waiting to speak to a receptionist if they prioritise ten calls backing up that rules say need answering within a certain time, and only one or two staff to do it. That's not unusual demand. But people who don't actually work in general practice wouldn't know that.

[ohfourfoxache]

@Dhcfisssifjrsnxfjds I suspect it is your exposure to the realities of the NHS that are sadly lacking. It shows.

[itsgettingwierd]

I agree.

The only issue I've ever had was once when I finally got through at 8.10am (3rd day of phoning as advised) and they informed that there was no appointments left for that day - "I need to ring at 8am".

I took a deep breath and asked what they thought I'd done 🤦‍♀️🤣

[ohfourfoxache]

I’ve dedicated my entire life to the NHS - including volunteering whilst at school and 2 (non clinical) degrees

I would be absolutely gutted if either of my kids went into the NHS in ANY capacity. I want better for them - and certainly not a life where they are logged in, unpaid, at 11pm on a Sunday for a

[HadaVerde]

I think the general Public just wants to be able to book an appointment and see a doctor in person and despite most people’s (working) lives getting back to normal months ago this doesn’t seem likely any time soon.

The changes put in place due to Covid seem permanent and I think it’s understandable that people are fed up with it.

Who should be be fed up with? It’s not government/NHS mandated that I can’t book and see my gp is it.