Men dominating the conversation even at ‘women’s’ event

[AliasGrape]

Recently attended an event for women in a particular (traditionally male dominated) industry. The event was part of a larger conference with both male and female delegates. This particular event was a coaching event for the ‘women in X’ group run by a female professional coach.

I am not in X industry, had been asked to attend in a slightly different capacity, so was able to mostly observe.

Two men from the conference attended the event. I’m not sure if they asked whether it would be ok or just assumed - presumably they were interested in the topic.

Predictably, these two men totally dominated the conversation - speaking over the women repeatedly. At one point one interrupted the coach and gave a lengthy spiel which was basically a less coherent version of what she was already in the middle of saying.

I know this is nothing new and entirely predictable. It was just fascinating if not utterly depressing to see it ‘in the wild’. I’ve previously worked in very different types of workplaces (with far more women though the men there were perfectly capable of similar behaviour) and now work freelance from home usually so don’t have other colleagues to deal with. To see it happen in a group and an event specifically targeted at women and explicitly titled as for them, to empower them - that was quite something.

If it had been my industry/ event I think I would have struggled not to comment, but very much felt it wasn’t my place.

Do other people have similar experiences?

[IveGotASongThatllGetOnYNerves]

I have never ever been on a training course where there wasn't at least one man on the course who decided he knew everything and spoke over people. Not once.

[LizzieSiddal]

I wish the person in charge of these events would bloody well tell these men to shut up and allow others to speak. Why don’t they? It’s part of their role to ensure a person doesn’t dominate proceedings.

[DillonPanthersTexas]

Can I ask what industry?

[Neolara]

My profession is mostly women. I went to a conference - about 300 women and maybe 10 men. Who asked the majority of questions and made totally pointless comments (talking because they need everyone to know they are there not because the comments add anything to the discussion)? The men obviously. I kept a tally chart because I was becoming so outraged by what was happening.

[Babdoc]

Not in the least surprised. But the professional female coach sounds a complete failure at her own job, if she allowed herself to be talked over by a mansplainer! Why on earth didn’t she shut him up with a withering put down and have him removed from the audience?

[KittiesInsane]

I joined a beginners’ online music theory course at the start of lockdown.

Of the 20 or so people there for the first session on Zoom, every single lengthy interruption was from a Dave or Andy or Mahmoud or Mike. Barely a peep from the women, who were politely trying to listen to the tutor, but couldn’t hear anything above the chaps trying to relate everything back to their ‘home sound recording studio’, or arguing that the tutor must be ‘basically wrong about that’ because they (Dave or Mahmoud or Andy) had missed the point.

I messaged after the first session and suggested heavy use of mute except when spoken answers were needed. Bliss.

(We definitely didn’t have a private competition amongst the women to beat the men to the answer every time. That would have been unfair. After all, we had a head start by being used to listening to the question.)

[Whatiswrongwithmyknee]

I don't want to derail the thread as I think these are very important observations. But if we accept the conceptualisations of 'women' and 'men' currently being aggressively promoted, then you have no idea who was a man or woman in the room. The only way you'd know was asking everyone. I think it's important not to hide this kind of interaction as it perpetuates the patriarchy. The coach might have felt unable to ask the men to leave as she could have no way of knowing if they were 'men' or 'women'. I have a DS btw and I am telling him about these kinds of problems - I'm telling him not all men do this but it is something for men to be aware of.

[AliasGrape]

In fairness to the coach, she did handle his interruption well, let him ramble himself out and then responded in a seemingly polite way but made it clear that was exactly what shed been saying anyway so he looked a bit stupid. Whether he noticed that or felt it I don't know.

It was construction.

[teawamutu]

Remember this going back to student days. One masterclass where a male student took up the first half of the session rambling on about what he'd been doing.

I waited for him to take a breath and expressed the view that interesting as this was, we were here to learn from the expert so could we maybe focus on that.

He subsided, several female students thanked me afterwards.

I must re-summon the ovaries I had as a grumpy teenager.

[CandyLeBonBon]

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

I don't want to derail the thread as I think these are very important observations. But if we accept the conceptualisations of 'women' and 'men' currently being aggressively promoted, then you have no idea who was a man or woman in the room. The only way you'd know was asking everyone. I think it's important not to hide this kind of interaction as it perpetuates the patriarchy. The coach might have felt unable to ask the men to leave as she could have no way of knowing if they were 'men' or 'women'. I have a DS btw and I am telling him about these kinds of problems - I'm telling him not all men do this but it is something for men to be aware of.

Eh??

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

I think that's a reasonable point.

[EmbarrassingAdmissions]

The only way you'd know was asking everyone. I think it's important not to hide this kind of interaction as it perpetuates the patriarchy. The coach might have felt unable to ask the men to leave as she could have no way of knowing if they were 'men' or 'women'.

Well, quite.

And, yes OP - I had hoped that that particular ghastly behaviour would wither away as older men retired and younger men came through who were accustomed to a different society. But it seems like something some young men have and other men acquire as they age and like exerting social control over others.

[lanadelgrey]

There was some research I saw in media recently that suggested that if a woman was first to speak or ask a question then women’s contribution to the discussion went up massively. If a man did, then the men essentially talked among themselves and women found it much harder to break into the conversation

[tiktok]

@CandyLeBonBon do you really think the coach was intimidated into not managing this situation better in case she erred in assuming Dave was a man....?

Whatevs. Coach should have shut him/her/them/zie up.

I have noticed this phenomenon all my life, from school onwards. In normal times, I went to open lectures at the local university. They had some big names occasionally. Every time questions opened, a man would speak, and if a woman had her hand up, a man with his hand up would be called to speak instead. I am not especially fond of standing up in front of 300 people and talking, but I actually deliberately try to pose a Q as it encourages other women!
One Big Name (man) said at the start of questions he would try to take the first Q from a woman, and then alternate man/woman after. This worked better, though no one challenged him about what if someone IDd as a woman. This was about three years ago. I think there would now be a fuss.

The other thing men do is to say ‘this isn’t so much a question, more of a comment’ and then ramble on smugly at length about themselves.

😡

[willrufford]

As a man who has attended many specialist events in engineering there are a few competitive men who hog the conversation.
They are repeat offenders. In a conference of a thousand, small group or at a table in the pub. We think them tedious as well.

[Shedbuilder]

They do this everywhere. I occasionally run info and training events introducing people to my own specialist little area of knowledge. Pre-Covid days I used to attend literary festivals and conferences and events. At most of them there is usually a man who puts his hand up at question time, when others are asking relevant and carefully honed questions, and embarks on a long and pointless anecdote in which he is the hero. I've often been tempted to yell 'Shut up' and now I've turned 60 and am a viper, maybe I will.

[LaRobeRouge]

A few years ago I listened to an interview with the author of the book "Why Men Fight". It was really interesting, and what particularly stuck with me was his statement that "testosterone is the status seeking hormone". I assess all of my encounters with men against this statement now and it makes perfect sense. Even my mild mannered, people pleasing DH, I can see how his interactions are always coached to gain someone's gratitude/admiration.

I worked in a male dominated industry during my 30s and witnessed this male domination on a daily basis. It's one of the reasons I established and run a women only social group (the other reason being unwanted sexual attention), which I mentioned on another thread about girls' nights out being discriminatory if male partners couldn't come along. Some posters genuinely couldn't see how including men makes any difference, lots of "What difference does having a penis make?" comments. Well actually it makes a shit load of difference.

After all the violent crimes being reported against women, and the current sustained attack on our identity and safe places I'm sad to say I'm thoroughly sick of men.

[ClawedButler]

"We find them tedious as well"

Yes, I think the majority of humans find these boorish pricks irritating. Interesting point about the status-seeking hormone - you could almost feel sorry for them slavishly competing for status the whole time instead of actually deriving some benefit, learning or enjoyment from their experiences. I say almost...

[ClawedButler]

I work in a generally women-dominated industry, but there is a sizeable minority of men. I've been lucky in that in my specific field the men tend to be the more creative, sociable sort that are perfectly happy in themselves and don't think twice about having women as bosses. However, the related fields are ripe with condescending arrogant old tosspots.

[Maltedmilkdrinks]

Went on an away day very recently where a junior male member of staff (who is gay, which is relevant as we are a diversity based organisation) but majority say 75% employees are women, high percentage non white too. Its a great diverse place really except the male/female split. That's because pay terrible! So this man took over the day. Greeting people as they came in like it was his party. This man is not young at all but very new to our industry. He's on a return to work type programme, very much the most junior there. He was allowed to dominate the whole day with a very lengthy and attention seeking icebreaker he'd volunteered to do. It went on for 2 hours. Apart from a handful of his entourage, the rest of us spent excruciating hours sucking this display up. Later he couldn't even listen to a very distinguished invited speaker without leaning over to chat about how amazing his section had been. He was given a special extra clap for his contribution at the end. All enabled by a senior female manager. And yes he likes to tell us all how to do our jobs. Because he's gay he seems to get away with behaviour that would not be acceptable from straight men in our public sector roles. E.g. bitchy jibes, poking fun at overweight colleagues etc. All my team were in agreement that misogyny was at play and hiding in plain sight. Its funny that in the absence of straight men where perhaps usually he'd not be top dog, he's assumed this over women and women of colour. (I think he messed with the wrong crowd!)
I can't ever remember witnessing a woman behave in this way. But its accepted. He's already been promoted once in less than 12 months.

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

In the same industry I was giving a presentation and was constantly challenged about the terminology I used.

The man talked over me and persistently 'corrected' me despite the fact I had a specific number of minutes allocated to me. I stopped, told him I was using a specific methodology that demanded participant led understanding / use of words rather than professional/scientific terminology being imposed and asked the organisers if I could have my minutes back.

I got right royally drunk for free at the bar later, so many people buying me a drink for putting him in his place. He, like many other men at that conference, just couldn't shut up if a woman was talking. It really annoyed me back then and still does now.

[FannyCann]

very lengthy and attention seeking icebreaker he'd volunteered to do. It went on for 2 hours.

A two hour icebreaker?? Even a half hour is bad enough, they are invariably excruciating.

[MargaritaPie]

Straight man Graham Glinehan does seem to be a rather dominant voice in gender-critical events, wouldn't you agree?

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

@MargaritaPie

Straight man Graham Glinehan does seem to be a rather dominant voice in gender-critical events, wouldn't you agree?

Mmmm!

Pot stirring again?

You might have misread the room again!

[CatherinaJTV]

@MargaritaPie

Straight man Graham Glinehan does seem to be a rather dominant voice in gender-critical events, wouldn't you agree?