DS8 feels hard done by as a male..

[ZigZagInToTheBeach]

I'm not convinced that I'm posting on the correct board here but I'm going to go for it anyway as I feel it's linked to gender equality. Please be kind! I'm happy to ask MNHQ to move it if someone suggests a more appropriate place for it.

DS8 has become upset on a few occasions over the last year about what he perceives as "everyone hating boys". I'm not sure how to talk to him about this and am hoping for some suggestions. I'm really concerned that this is pushing him towards a negative view of girls. I want to talk to him about how great both boys and girls are (I have two wonderful sons after all so do think that boys are great but not that one gender is greater than the other) whilst also avoiding gender stereotypes and I most certainly don't want to paint one gender as superior to another. I have listed his 'evidence' below but please bear in mind that this is his perception, regardless of whether or not you agree with him.

Girls can join Scouts but boys can't join Brownies.
The boys at school will get into trouble for doing something that the girls don't get into trouble for, one of his examples is being asked to quieten down.
The boys at school get into trouble more frequently than the girls do.
Various comments made by my friends or family, eg. my cousin witnessing my boys playing in the mud and joking to me "Sometimes I wish that I had had a son but at times like this I'm glad I didn't", or my friend who comments on how boys are noisier and harder work than girls.
Although his teacher tells the class that she doesn't have a favourite pupil DS8 says it's obvious that it's X girl. To be fair to him, having listened or watched most of the online class lessons this was blindingly obvious to me too and this was before my son spoke to me about this.

[eaglerising]

Just point out some amazing male role models, from a variety of different fields, to him. What are his interests? Are there any role models there? It would be a good start.

[BoomBoomsCousin]

I think, even at 8, you can talk to him about how people stereotype boys and girls and react to what they think is happening based on those stereotypes rather than more objectively and how this isn't good for anyone. And maybe point out how girls are often denied opportunities for things he likes because of this (the reputation Guides used to have for avoiding a lot of the fun outdoorsy things boys in Scouts did, for example). If you can cite examples you could then talk about what his expectations are when he sees a girl do something compared with a boy.

[VintageDiamonds]

It’s understandable when we live in a society where people like your cousin make such odd remarks. I think I’d be teaching my sons that her comment is nothing to do with boys or girls but everything to do with elevating herself. That’s the society we live in, unfortunately.

My boys have noticed similar injustices towards boys over the years. They’re in their teens now and both have a mix of male and female friends. It’s good that your son notices injustices and stereotypes. Just listen to him and keep discussing it.

[museumum]

I think this is a good opportunity to talk about damaging stereotypes on both sides. It’s not fair to portray boys as noisy and messy but equally not fair to say girls are bossy or gossipy or that boys have to like camo and sports clothes and girls have to wear pink and like sparkles.

[TheChallenorsQ]

Girls can join Scouts but boys can't join Brownies
To be fair the Scout association needed to invite girls because the organisation would have collapsed without them.
Scouts isn't "cool" anymore and boys prefer spending time playing Minecraft on the computer or whatever instead these days. Brownies however has not suffered a similar collapse in popularity.

At age 8 it's sad he's feeling hard done by. Does anyone at home reflect these attitudes? Does he have a good father figure or sibling?

[ZigZagInToTheBeach]

Thank you so much for these replies. I love all of the suggestions and they have really helped me to see things a little more clearly.

[Frubecube]

It's tricky, I think it can be hard to get a balance in honesty.

For example, my nephew's primary school had an amazing initiative a few years back to try and engage girls in tech, they had someone come and deliver some after-school 'lessons' and they all got some kit to keep (only raspberry pis, but still). It was great, and I see the logic, but it was a shame they weren't all offered the chance to participate- the school doesn't usually offer anything like this so it wasn't even like just let the girls have this one thing. It was hard to explain to an 8 year old why boys weren't allowed to partake and given the same opportinities. Surely it would be beneficial anyway to have a mixed group, as it would make working together 'normal', as it should be.

There are stereotypes about boys that seem to, in some cases, be self fulfilling prophecies as well. I think all that you can do is support his interest, listen to him when he speaks about what's on his mind, and perhaps find some men in fields of interest he has to help inspire him.

[Daca]

I think this is an important topic, and you sound like a very empathetic parent, OP. Undoubtedly, our society treats some girls very badly (sexualisation, exploitation) and single-sex spaces for girls still have their justification. But for many white, middle-class girls under the age of puberty, things have improved dramatically in the last few decades, and comments such as your cousins are maybe due to over-compensation for the blatant anti-girl sexism of the past.

But maybe there is a lack of positive male role models or appreciation of masculine qualities? Is there a case for reserving some single-sex spaces for boys? Possibly. Interested in what others think.

[whatswithtodaytoday]

Is he aware of the history of how women have been treated? That might help him understand why they're now given more visible opportunities.

[nestlestealswater]

Sounds like a good moment to start opening a dialogue with him about why things are the way they are. Listen to his worries - kids are so sensitive to unfairness, and he sounds like a sensitive soul.

Would be great to get him involved in some boys only activities (off the top of my head maybe a sports team?) so that he can form good friendships and be in an environment where he can't compare his treatment to girls' treatment.

[dolorsit]

You can tell him that the scouts decided to let girls to join because not enough boys were joining and the organisation was struggling.

[GrumpyHoonMain]

@Frubecube

It's tricky, I think it can be hard to get a balance in honesty.

For example, my nephew's primary school had an amazing initiative a few years back to try and engage girls in tech, they had someone come and deliver some after-school 'lessons' and they all got some kit to keep (only raspberry pis, but still). It was great, and I see the logic, but it was a shame they weren't all offered the chance to participate- the school doesn't usually offer anything like this so it wasn't even like just let the girls have this one thing. It was hard to explain to an 8 year old why boys weren't allowed to partake and given the same opportinities. Surely it would be beneficial anyway to have a mixed group, as it would make working together 'normal', as it should be.

There are stereotypes about boys that seem to, in some cases, be self fulfilling prophecies as well. I think all that you can do is support his interest, listen to him when he speaks about what's on his mind, and perhaps find some men in fields of interest he has to help inspire him.

Mixed groups would negate the purpose. The reason these courses are sex segregated is that mixed UK / US / European education systems just don’t encourage the right behaviours in girls that facilitate STEM careers. Girls are often taught or incentivised to be risk averse and follow the rules (while boys are tolerated when they don’t follow this, girls often face social consequences for not following the heard) which doesn’t really work in STEM where you need to learn the rules and then innovate to break them.

Without boys girls tend to be better at not only taking risks at school but academically too. It’s why single sex girls schools do so much better in terms of grades and STEM careers.

[sagaLoren]

I think the important point to make here is that we are often acutely aware of the injustices inflicted on us but are often blind to those inflicted on others (in child friendly language of course!). A simple example for a young boy - imagine a girl who loves football, all of the players she sees on TV are men, everyone talks about football as though it's something for boys, people laugh about how girls are no good and so she gives up her dream and sits on the sidelines with the other girls. Unless you spent a day in her shoes you wouldn't even know that's how she felt.

[ZigZagInToTheBeach]

Lots of really helpful replies here. I'm really glad I asked for advice. Thank you!

I really like that example to use @sagaLoren. Thank you.

He is a sensitive soul. He is aware of some inequalities in the world we live in and is shocked by them. Knowing that doesn't seem to help him on a personal level though.

[23PissOffAvenueWF]

I was going to say exactly what @sagaLoren has said.

It’s always so much easier to see the injustice being done to you / the cohort you identify with (in your son’s case - boys).

It’s not a race to the bottom, or a ‘who has it worse’ competition.

But encourage him to put himself in other people’s shoes.

Girls his age have to look at the range of works leaders, the CEOs, the power-holders of the world, and yes, the sports players who get paid so much more money - and see almost all men.

It’s hard because the situation for adults isn’t his world, and in his world, he feels hard done by.

But just encourage him to think outside his box a little bit, to see the bigger picture, and although things might seem pretty unfair right now, life will have a way of balancing out.

[23PissOffAvenueWF]

• world leaders

[NeverDropYourMoonCup]

Does he know that Brownies/Guides was originally set up because girls weren't allowed in Cubs/Scouts at all? Maybe it could be explained (depending on his level of understanding) as 'if somebody said you couldn't play with them, you went off and played with the other people they didn't want playing with them, would it be fair for them to then complain that you were playing your game without them?'


It does sound like he's picked up a few negative things from somewhere about women and girls, along with normal child feelings of It's Not Fair. Does he have contact with somebody you know has some complaints about the rights of women and girls? Somebody who, as an adult, claims to be A Nice Guy?

He might not. But it's worth bearing in mind.

[arethereanyleftatall]

Good time to raise how privileged men have always been and still are, and that it's great that there are examples of addressing the balance. Does he notice the things in school that are in boys favour? Like the fact that they take up 90% of the playground playing football whilst the girls play round the edge.

[NiceGerbil]

Firstly WTF from your cousin?

I hope you said something at the time or afterwards. At the very least, I don't want you saying shit like that in front of my son.

Girls get a lot of crap as well- bitchy etc.

It's not a competition!

If your son is interested in inequality around the world does he know about the situation for girls in some places? Or would he see that as proving his point- the focus is on them.

[MissBarbary]

Firstly WTF from your cousin?

Does it surprise you that comments like that are made? I remember them as being fairly routine if you're the mother of boys only.

Someone actually asked me shortly after my son was born if I was disappointed he wasn't a girl. None of my friends wanted boys.

[NiceGerbil]

Mothers of girls get stuff like this from mothers of boys.

It's not a one way street at all.

[NiceGerbil]

And yes of course she should have pulled her cousin up for saying that in front of her son!

[teawamutu]

Have two preteen boys - got seriously hacked off from pregnancy onwards with people asking if I wouldn't have preferred a girl. I would have loved a daughter, but not at the expense of my wonderful sons!

Mine haven't picked up on negatives like your ds has (yet) but we do talk a lot about sexism, no such things as boy and girl interests etc. And I challenge every single daft saying in their hearing. Nicely.

Your ds sounds lovely. Value him and talk to him like you're doing - it's all we can do.

[MissBarbary]

@NiceGerbil

Mothers of girls get stuff like this from mothers of boys.

It's not a one way street at all.

Do they? Do you have experience of this?

[NiceGerbil]

Yes. Why is it so hard for you to believe that mothers of girls don't get this sort of shit as well?

I'd be interested to know why you seem to think this is impossibly unlikely!