16wks - surely I should be allowed to sleep now?

[OldEnglishSheepDog]

I'm honestly at the end. Pup has slept through ONCE since we got him. When he wakes for a wee it can take an hour to resettle him. Much of the time I find myself sleeping on the sofa with him on my lap.

I'm currently stood in the living room afraid to move as he will start whining the moment I do. I am on the fb page everyone recommends and am following advice.

Can't fit crate upstairs so to be with him means being downstairs. Stopped bedding down on the sofa a couple of weeks ago as it felt like I was creating an expectation.

I have woken up in my own bed once since I got him. He is taken out around 10pm and settles reasonably quickly, it's when he wakes that us the problem.

Right now, despite all the planning, I am wishing we'd never got him. I am clearly incapable of looking after him and he can't be happy to be whining this much. It's not his fault but I don't know how to fix it.

[BiteyShark]

There are so many different methods of bringing a puppy up that if it isn't working for you have you considered doing something different?

I know some people advocate never letting their puppy cry but I adopted a middle approach at night. If he cried I got up and put him outside to toilet irrespective of whether he wanted to or not. I then picked him up and put him back to bed without saying a word. I repeated this frequently until he got the message that night time was for sleeping or a quick toilet break. I never stayed with him as I didn't want to get into the habit of him thinking the crying would achieve that and I didn't stay to settle him as it was a put back to bed and leave. If he cried again we repeated the process after a few mins but again it was straight outside and if no pee straight back to bed.

Obviously if you are happy continuing with what you are following great but it doesn't sound like you are so maybe take a step back and look at some other things that you might want to try.

All puppies and households are different so what works for one person might not work for others.

Keep going though as it's bloody hard when they are puppies but they do grow up eventually and you will look back and think I will get an adult dog next time

[OldEnglishSheepDog]

Thanks Bitey, and thanks for not judging. I feel like an absolute failure right now. My concern is that there isn't lots of noise that wakes the rest of the house but you're right, something needs to change.

The other night I left the crate open and he slept right through but I think that may have just been luck. I will try your suggestion tonight. We have been doing that (but giving in for cuddles around 4.30am as it's the only way for me to catch some sleep).

[BiteyShark]

No judging here, I found the puppy months hard but once he gained his adult personality I couldn't ever imagine life without him. However, at the beginning if someone had magicked him away I would have been relieved.

It does get better but I found I needed to take some of the guides online loosely and find my own way that worked for us.

[BiteyShark]

Other things to maybe try:-

White noise machine so your pup doesn't wake with every noise outside.

Blackout curtains to block out any light.

Even if you are getting up to take him outside have an alarm clock so only after that goes off do you stay and talk and cuddle him so he starts to associate that with play time in the mornings.

Covering the crate if you don't already to make it more den like.

[positivepineapple]

Ah old English. I really feel for you, puppies are hard work.

We crated both of ours, however never responded to whining/barking. The first night was difficult but we've never had an issue since. We don't use the crate anymore, they have a giant bed that they both snuggle up together in. Tbh, considering how much of a nightmare they can sometimes still be in the day with barking etc, bedtime they are a dream.

There was puppy pads in the crate for night time toileting, our boy used his for one night then never again. Our girl took about 3 weeks until she was dry through the night. We didn't use puppy pads at all throughout the day, we followed the after play/sleep/food routine. It did help massively that both were summer puppies.

Last wee's are 11pm, then first wee's at 7am.

It may seem a little cruel, and the first night was hard but they both learned very quickly. We worked on the basis to not respond to behaviour we didn't want, and lots of praise and encouragement for good behaviour.

It does get easier - I promise! Dogs just want consistency and easy to achieve goals. You're doing a great job

[Tinkobell]

Hi - I've got an 8 week old pup and have also raised 2 very happy balanced but sadly no longer with us dogs.
I know I'm poss going to get hammered for this by other posters but here goes.....But if it were me, I'd STOP staying up with your pup from tonight. Make yourself up a fantastic fresh bed upstairs and go buy some bloody good earplugs.
Have a feed, romp around late eve...then start to quieten things down and break the eye contact.
Take pup out for a pee at 11pm. Then shut the pen and ensure the pup has a space where is can empty itself that is very separated from its bedding. Have fresh water available.
Go to bed and DONT ago down til 7 or your get up time. Make sure the sleep area is dark and cave like. Stick one of your tops in pups bed.
Brace yourself for a good few nights of wailing.
In the day, lots and lots of contact, cuddles and reassurance.
Go out each day and leave the pup for an hour in its area.

Good luck!!!

[OldEnglishSheepDog]

OK, some different and useful suggestions here. Thank you. The last few weeks have been as follows:
Try to do a later walk (around 7pm) but often he ends up asleep on the sofa. I think we might need to tackle this. He seems to sleep more willingly in the crate if we haven't let him up with us so I may have to take a hard line there.
End of evening wee around 10/10.30pm (we get up early anyway). We start getting ready for bed and sometimes he will take himself off to his crate quite happily. Otherwise I will put him in, allow him to settle then close the crate. There is a cover but he didn't see to like it. I may try again with this. The crate only has bedding in it - his water is outside. Because he has a bit of a beard, if he drinks in his crate he will soak it. I have also donated some well worn pyjamas for comfort although I've not noticed it having much of an effect.

We will go upstairs and after a couple of minutes the whining will start. It is not barking but whining which, left unchecked will increase in urgency and start to sound distressed. Like Bitey suggested, I go down, put him outside then bring him back in. He will sometimes fight to get out of the crate and so I tend to let him (standing still and ignoring him). He will do a quick circuit of the room and then settle back down into the crate. If I sit down anywhere he will cry and jump to get on to my lap.

After a few attempts I will close the crate and go upstairs. The sound of me on the stairs will wake him up (if he has started dozing) and the whining will start again. If I don't go to him he may wee in his crate.

Eventually I will make it to bed. He will generally sleep until around 2am when I will take him out (he often does do a wee but not necessarily very much). The whole in and out of the crate thing starts again and can take more than an hour. Again, it's the going upstairs that causes the problem.

At around 4.30am he'll wake again and, because it'll be time to get up by the time I get him in the crate, I give up and go to sleep on the sofa with him on my chest.

So I think I have to return to closing the crate. I don't think I can just ignore crying (I think now he's used to me coming it might be a bit scary if that suddenly stops) but I could be stricter with Bitey's approach.

Incidentally this whole thing reminds me of when I was trying and failing to breastfeed. I would put DS to my chest every 4hrs, then give him some pumped milk, then pump for half an hour. I would get about half an hour of sleep between each session. After 6 weeks my HV told me I would not be a bad person if I gave him formula and I cried at her. A lot.

Thanks Tinkobell and Positivepineapple as well. It's nice to hear some alternative views and I think I will probably use some of your suggestions too.

[BiteyShark]

The white noise machines are great (I use them in hotels as the muffle sounds). Now I know dogs have better hearing but mine would bark in the night if he heard something outside but this stopped when we used a white noise machine with him. You might find one muffles the sound of you moving about upstairs.

[Tinkobell]

OP. I think start as you mean to go on. If ongoing you are happy to have dog on sofa, fine. Though personally I'd do this by strict invite - not have it as the default or your pup will feel short-changed with the crate. Perhaps ease off sofa time just until the crate is accepted fully.
With the whining, you've got to blank him. Avoid eye contact completely. When the dog falls silent then go over and give a stroke & warm words. Otherwise he's connecting his whining to your behaviour to come to him.
It sounds like the dog is seeing the crate as a prison rather than sanctuary. I'm wondering if you could have the crate open and put a child stair gate over a utility room door or some other smaller room with pee pad by the back door so that the pup has just a bit more room?
Look after yourself a bit. Get nice food in for you and have a great bed waiting upstairs and some earplugs. You will get there!

[OldEnglishSheepDog]

Bitey - it's a good thought. Our problem is that the whole of downstairs is openplan so the stairs are visible (but not if we cover the crate again... hmmm) so I think he sees as well as hears. I might try leaving the telly with the snow screen.

Tinkobell - yes, I need to draw a bit of a line with the sofa (in fact I've just told him to go away as I type this!) My DH is better about it. And you're right about the eye contact, I'm terrible for chatting away to hi, explaining why I'm doing this or that.

He seems quite happy in his crate when I'm busy but if the door closes he gets upset. I need to work on this I think.

Weirdly, he seems fine when I go out. He sits himself near the front door and waits patiently. There's never any mess and when I sneak up on the house, there is no noise of any sort. I don't crate him when I go out but the living room is secure so he has a small area to pad around it. I have left him for a couple of hours at a time and he's been completely fine.

Incidentally I attach a photo so you can see the eyes I have to contend with.

[Tinkobell]

Awww he's so lovely! But it sounds like he's managed to run you ragged and you need to try and wind-back a few pushy behaviours. We're open plan too....nice house but the whining echoes. First night we had our pup penned in the kitchen but exactly the problem you described...she can see too much - people going up and down the stairs, comings & goings. We quickly moved her to the utility room with an open door and pressure mounted stair gate. Can still see me milling around the kitchen but it's more enclosed and a tad darker too. Could you find a space like that for a while? It only has to be during this young stage ?
Definitely cover the crate back and sides. They need and love a dog den! Personally I think with the night crying, tough it out. Your pup is older, they know they're inherently safe. He's just mainly frustrated at being abandoned at night. He'll get over it. Then you just have to top up the emontional bank account in the daytime with lots of fun and play, which you'll have the energy to do if you've had 40 winks yourself!
I'm very old school on this, I know from previous threads many owners disagree with my views though.

[Tinkobell]

Have to post ours too ....Our 8 week Cockapoo! She screamed the house down last night but I was met with absolute jubilance this morning which was lovely. We're trying Adaptil spray a large cuddly with a pulse sensation in it. Unlike me, she gets to sleep off her bad night with naps. We've done it before and survived!
We're also trying to socialise with our cat and have a DD sitting AS levels, so it's full on. Still sane....just.

[Wolfiefan]

The puppy stage is hard. Really hard. I actually slept by the crate for 3 weeks. Puppy didn't whine. She full on freaked out if she couldn't see me. It worked for us. She now sleeps downstairs and I'm back in bed! But as Bitey says they're all different.

[positivepineapple]

I agree with Tinkobell it is hard to do, but he is whining to get your attention. It's a means to an end, he's learnt - I make this noise and my lovely human comes downstairs and I get attention. Which is what you want to discourage.

I have to be honest, when we got our first girl my husband was the one who firmly enforced this policy. I thought it was awful, utterly cruel, he was unreasonable, she would be scarred for life etc etc, there was a huge argument about it.

But it works and it's actually not at all. He's not crying because he's sad, he's crying because he's learnt this is what he does to get your attention.

I agree with Bitey on the setting of the alarm for toileting, if you don't want to leave him overnight, you get up on your terms and take him out, then straight back to bed. He will soon pick it up.

You've said he's fine when you go out, so I think you can rule out actual separation anxiety.

Every dog is different, but ultimately they want to please you. He needs to know what you want from him - so you have to show him in a way he will understand.

It's a lot harder to get rid of learned behaviours as they get older, so the earlier you start - the better. I have a few undesirable habits we didn't train out of our girl - because we thought they were cute, which our boy has now picked up.......

BTW - he is adorable!! I too, would struggle with those eyes but for the sake of both your mental health it's worth it.

[positivepineapple]

Tinkobell Puppy is gorgeous too! I have two cats and two dogs and we just let them introduce themselves. The dogs learnt immediately that the cats rule the house.

[OldEnglishSheepDog]

Wolfiefan - so did I. But it doesn't seem to have helped.

Ok. I'm going to try toughing it out now. I'm not sure I can move the crate due to the utility room being out of action but I will cover it completely. I'll try some sort of white noise and come down at 6.

[Wolfiefan]

Good luck. Unfortunately there's no one right way to do it that suits every pup. Would be easier if there was!!

[FittyPheasant]

I’m not averse to sleeping with the pups (in my bed) or putting into bed with my teenage son. This happens maybe once a week when for whatever reason they won’t settle downstairs (usually the weather, sometimes it’s because one of the family isn’t home). I don’t find it makes them harder to settle on their own every other time, so apparently not making a rod for my own back. I’m more keen on a good nights sleep than I am worried about dogs on my bed.
I know I sound ridiculously smug but I have a pup of 19 months and an 8 month old and I have really enjoyed the puppy phases. The second pup is a lot more demanding than the first with a hair trigger for barking at ghosts at 3am. But when she does this she is not angling to get into bed with me she is genuinely worried that we are being invaded , so once I have checked the borders with her she settles back down to sleep in the kitchen.

[babydreamer1]

Ours was the same, got her at 6 months though so was a lot of habits to brake. We started her off downstairs and spent the first 2 weeks with constant whining all night. I refuse to share our room with a dog so we put her crate in our room just one night, then moved her to the door, then along the landing ect. Never heard another peep after that. Now she happily runs off to bed each night and sleeps through until we get up unless she's bursting.

[geekone]

Our puppy only cried the one night properly we send down let him out. Coveredthe crate he slept for an hour. In the morning the crate was the enemy. I put my scarf in. It was due for a wash cold winters wearing it all the time and voila he went in and went to sleep and no crying that night he just needed a bit of me with him. I assume though at 16 weeks you have done pretty much everything but just incase I thought I would let you know.

[OldEnglishSheepDog]

Thank you for these suggestions too. Yes, he's got some of my pyjamas to sleep with.

If it was only me, I'd happily have him on my bed but.. ahem... how would you ever....? Anyway, he's not really able to get downstairs by himself yet so I wouldn't want him potentially roaming about up there.

OK - plan for tonight. He's having a bath this evening which should mean he stays awake a bit more. I'm going to cover the crate (do you cover it completely or leave one side uncovered?). We'll take him out for a wee then put him in. If he whines I'll lift him out and put him outside. If he doesn't wee then I'll lift him back in again. No opportunity for wandering about.

It does mean that I'll still be getting up but at least I'll know he's not soiling his crate and the neighbours won't have to suffer too much.

[thegirlsallgrowedupnow]

Sounds like a plan. If he is getting short walks in the day and short training sessions and plenty of play you shouldn’t need to worry about keeping him up later. I think it is a good idea to have a cut off time after supper where all dog gets is a fuss, a good relaxing brushing and quiet family time. If you are consistent with this it will be what he expects and the more relaxed a dog is the more he will sleep!
If he is relaxed about you leaving him for a couple of hours and waits by the door, he knows you will come back, it should translate to you leaving him to go to bed. Maybe try his crate covered on three sides but with a view of the stairs. Respond to whining with a quick put out for a wee and straight back to bed, no eye contact. Ignore whining. Tough but actually won’t take that long....you will find out over next few days when he really does need to wee...probably the 4am slot and then you can ignore the 2am fuss and go on from there. I am probably quite old school with night time but very modern in that my girl gets plenty of exercise, two mostly off lead walks a day , mental stimulation including an agility class and play during the day so I feel that 7pm to 7am is quiet time and sleep time. She seems to agree. Good luck.

[OldEnglishSheepDog]

thegirlsallgrowedupnow Well today was a bit different because when it was time for our usual walk it tipped down and he just raced back to the car (couldn't blame him!) But we had a longer afternoon walk to make up for it. We did a bath with some training involved and we've done a fair amount of playing.

I've just given him a chew and put it in his crate and he's lying down there now quite happily.

So I'll take him out if he whines and put him out for a wee but if he does it again when I put him back I will ignore him. I'll avoid eye contact (I think that's one of my major problems) and I won't hang around waiting for him to settle, I'll just go.

My big concern is disturbing DH so I might camp out in the spare room tonight so that our bedroom door can be completely closed.

[villainousbroodmare]

Also, constantly talking to your dog swiftly renders your voice meaningless wallpaper. Comforting possibly, but not worth focusing on.

[OldEnglishSheepDog]

Oooh - does that mean I should stop doing it? Or keep on!?